Unconditional Parenting with Alfie Kohn

In this episode Shelley Clarke chats with Alfie Kohn, a forefather in challenging the conventional wisdom society tells us about children and parenting. Known for his outspoken critic of education’s fixation on grades, test scores along with the parenting paradigm of punishment and rewards, Kohn has helped to shape the thinking of educators — as well as parents the world over. 
 
In this episode you'll learn about:
- why punishment and rewards are two sides of the same coin and are damaging to your child's self-esteem
- what unconditional love in parenting really looks and feels like for a child
- how to shift the 'power over' dynamic in your home to a 'power with' your child
-  why bribes and praise are ineffective at helping kids to grow into the kind of people we dream they'll become
- why the current parenting paradigm makes kids learn that it's all about power, not morality
- where the phrase time-out was originally born from and why it is negatively impacting your child

If you are wanting to create a new dynamic in your family home, centred around respect and connection with your child then this is the podcast episode for you!

Continue the conversation with Shelley here:
https://www.facebook.com/shelleyclarkemindbodyparenting
https://www.instagram.com/_shelleyclarke_/

Find Alfie Kohn here:
https://www.alfiekohn.org/
Alfie Kohn's Books

This podcast is produced by Nikki O'Brien from Quintessential Being

Transcript

 00:00

I wish to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I live on. I pay my respects to the Kaurna people elders past and present, and honour their ongoing traditions. 

Welcome to the Mind, Body, Parenting podcast, I'm your host Shelley Clarke. Here I talk about all things Mind and Body and how this relates to ourselves and our parenting. I envision a world where children are seen and heard, and parents feel supported and less alone. Join me here in the power of story, expert knowledge and lived experiences. Let's dive in…

Welcome back to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host, Shelley Clarke. And today I have the absolute privilege and honour of speaking with Alfie Kohn. So Alfie is a world renowned author. So if you haven't heard of him and his work, then this is a wonderful treat for you. If you have read his books before, then I hope that this chat is a reminder and you know, you will have some aha moments, hearing him speak. So I get to chat with Alfie for about half an hour. And we'll dive into that interview in a minute, but I wanted to read out his bio and talk a little bit more about his work beforehand. And I'll also come back at the end to just reflect on what we chat about. Alfie Kohn writes and speaks widely on human behaviour, education and parenting. He's written 14 books, and the most recent one is called schooling beyond measure, and other unorthodox essays about education. He's written the myth of the spoiled child, challenging the conventional wisdom about children and parenting, punished by rewards. Unconditional parenting, which is what we'll talk a lot about today, the schools our children deserve and many more. Kohn has been described in Time Magazine as perhaps the country and they're talking about the states because he lives in the USA. Perhaps the country's most outspoken critic of Education's fixation on grades and test scores. his criticism of competition and rewards has helped to shape the thinking of educators as well as parents and managers across the country and abroad. Kohn has been featured on hundreds of TV and radio programmes, including the Today Show and Oprah. He's also been featured in Washington Post and Los Angeles Times and many other journals and publications. He lectures widely at universities and to school faculties, parent groups and corporations, all on understanding well different topics really, but understanding motivation from the inside out, rethinking rewards and assessments, going beyond bribes and threats. And you know, really understanding what drives a child's behaviour and how we can power with our children rather than using power over our children and controlKohn’s books have been translated into more than like two dozen languages. And, you know, he regularly lectures and speaks across the country and worldwide. He's a father of two grown children and lives in the Boston area in the States. So I'm really excited to chat with him. Today, we're going to be focusing on unconditional parenting, his book, unconditional parenting, and so I read this many years ago. And I've just been rereading it recently, knowing that I was going to have this chat with him. And you know, it really does remind me of the, the different ways that we try and control children or try and get children to do what we want to do. And he really questions that and you know, has the long term research to, you know, to explain to parents how this can impact our children in the long run. So, let's dive in straight away now with him and I'll come back at the end for another little chat. 

Welcome to the mind body parenting Podcast. Today we're chatting with Alfie Kohn. Alfie, welcome. 

Alfie

Glad to be here.

04:35 Shelley

Thank you so much for your time today. Let's dive straight in. Because I know your time is very precious. I wanted to talk about your book, unconditional parenting. You've written many books, but this book in particular was really impactful for me in understanding or changing the paradigm that I parent from, and I wanted to chat about that for people that might not have read the book. or heard about your work before? Shall we start there about the impact of punishments and also rewards? Sure.

05:09 Alfie

Well, there's basically two ways you can raise a child. One is by doing things to the child. And the other is by working with the child. A doing to approach can take the form of either deliberately making the child unhappy when he or she doesn't do what we want. By that's we call that punishment or more euphemistically consequences. Or we can bribe the child by dangling a goodie in front of him or her a reward, sometimes euphemistically called positive reinforcement. punishments and rewards are not opposites. They're, they're two sides of the same coin. And the only thing you can ever get with any kind of punitive consequence, or positive reinforcement is temporary obedience at an enormous cost. So, my book unconditional parenting begins by laying out the research demonstrating that any kind of bribe or threat carrot or stick is, in the long run, not just ineffective at helping kids to grow into the kind of people we dream they'll become, but actually actively counterproductive getting in the way. So the absence of any kind of reward, including praise, or punishment, including timeout, is a necessary first step towards helping kids become happy, ethical, tined, independent, curious people, what we have to do is, in addition to getting rid of what holds kids back, namely, the pressure to avoid a punishment or get a reward, it's also begin to get better at working with them to solve problems together.

07:13 Shelley

Hmm, yes, I love that. And that, really, I think, punishments I obviously understood, but when I read your book, it was really highlighting the fact around rewards. And also praised want to talk a little bit more, you mentioned, praise, what that does for a child and how that can have a negative effect.

07:35 Alfie

Well, once you understand why punishment of any kind is problematic, it remains only to understand how what we thought was okay, the innocuous practices are actually conceptually connected. So, if if I threatened to punish a child, I'm basically saying do this, or here's what I'm going to do to you. And even if a kid is sufficiently frightened, and Duff it, that begins to interrupt and warp our relationship with a child who now is about as happy to see us coming as we would be to see a police car in our rearview mirrors. And it also makes kids learn that this is all about power, not morality. The reason not to do bad things isn't because they're bad, and helping kids to construct a sense of how they affect other people. It's about self interest and power. Namely, if we catch them doing something we don't like, we can make their lives worse, unhappy. And so they don't learn to be good people, when we use spankings or take away privileges or yell at them or whatever. They learn to avoid us or anybody else who has the power to do that. So now let's flip it and talk about reward. If we say to kids, do this, and you'll get that if you jump through my hoops, I'll give you a candy bar and extra treat. I'll give you money. I'll give you a toy, a privilege or something. Exactly the same thing is true that I just said about punishment. I mean, now, again, the focus is on self interest, not how I can help other people feel good, for example, but how if I'm caught doing what my parent likes, I'll get something for him. Not surprisingly, research shows that children who are frequently rewarded by their parents are less generous and caring than other kids are. Because the question they've learned, they've been taught to ask is, what are these people with more power? Want me to do and what do I get for doing it? So the focus is not on the impact of their actions on others. It's on self interest, and pleasing people with power. Now, the next step is to realise that everything I just said now is exactly as true if the reward happens to be verbal. Or as I call it a verbal doggie biscuit. What's true of paying kids to do something we like, is just as true. When we give them a verbal doggie biscuit when we say, Good job or good on you, you know, I really like the way you This is still manipulative, still doing things to rather than working with. And according to the research, it has exactly the same counterproductive effects as any other bribe or threat.

10:51 Shelley

Thank you. Yes, I think that is really important for parents to hear, because I think sometimes we will, especially at, you know, lately, you know, positive reinforcement and talking about praising the, you know, the things that we want our kids doing, really has, that underlying tone doesn't have, well, we're just wanting them to do something still, rather than working with them. And, and working on the relationship, which is what I love, so much, and I talk so much about here on on this podcast. Yeah, so thank you for explaining that. So. So clearly, you talk a bit in your books around, like power imbalance between the adult and children, and the power of and the impacts of with holding love, I do want to talk a little bit more about that.

11:46 Alfie

One of the punishments that some therapists and doctors and teachers suggest is, should be called forcible isolation of young children when they need us most. But of course, we don't call it that we call it timeout. Because that makes that makes us feel better about making kids feel terrible. And what the phrase timeout originally was short for timeout from positive reinforcement. And it was developed initially in laboratories on laboratory animals by plunging them in the dark or not feeding them instead of positive reinforcement. And the idea here is that we are going to turn off the tap, you know, so and then the question becomes, well, what's the positive reinforcement? It's not like we're constantly in the process of giving kids little candy bars, and then we stop when we think they're bad. Well, the positive reinforcement as the behaviour is framed, that we're now taking a timeout from to punish the child is our love, our care. That's how it's experienced by the child, sometimes even accentuated or underscored by putting physical distance between between us. And for a young child that can be emotionally devastating, especially when they don't have the sense really fully of why this happened or when it will be over. This leads to a broader understanding that I tried to develop in my book beyond just what's wrong with punishments and rewards and how you can work with kids instead. And that is the understanding that children don't just need to be loved by us, or even loved a lot. What they need, what we all need, is to be loved unconditionally. Which means for who we are not for what we do, we need to know and our kids especially need to know that even when they screw up, or fall short in some way, that in no way does our care for them our attention, our approval, and acknowledgement and love become called into doubt. So they need to know especially when things are tough, that that we will never stop loving them that we will love them no matter what. And if that sounds good in principle, and I think most parents will immediately say, Well, of course I love my child unconditionally. But here's the key point, praise and other rewards, when we like what they do, and timeout and other punishments when we don't, or exactly the opposite of that unconditional love that children need because they experience it as conditional care. They experience that as there are strings attached to mommy or daddy's love. And they have to do X in order to get it. It doesn't even matter what the x is it doesn't even matter how they experience it, you know, because in some household kids get a lot more love attention and approval when they do well in school. In some places, it's when they do well in sports. In some places, it's when they're quiet and well behaved, you know, or mindlessly obedient, or when they're pretty or funny, or hide their anger, or whatever. The point is not which of these conditions we place on our love. It's the idea of any conditions. And thus, the vast majority of resources for parents, especially those that talk about positive reinforcement, or timeout or whatever. are arguing for a 10 additional approach to parenting. That is exactly the opposite of what kids need to flourish.

15:55 Shelley

Yes, thank you so much. It. Yeah, it really is sending the message that when you, I will only love you when you behave in this way. And if you're behaving in any other way, then you know, then I'm not going to show you my love, I'm going to withdraw my love. And that's, that's the most, one of the most painful thing is that a child can experience. Right?

16:15 Alfie

And it is their experience of that that matters, not our intentions, let alone just our behaviour. So even parents who say, Well, of course, I love my kid no matter what. What predicts to the outcome for children, is how it's understood and experienced by them, not what we thought we were doing.

16:36 Shelley

Yes, that was my next question, actually, are you You know, you talk a lot about the felt sense of the child, well, how they feel our love, because every parent would say, Well, I love my child, unconditionally. And of course, I love my child, but it is how the children how our children experience that love. How, how do you help parents to understand that and or how do you help parents to then change what they're doing?

17:05 Alfie

Well, the understanding part, or helping them doing what I whatever I can, in my power to help them understand is the easy part. You know, I explain it the way I just explained it to you. And I do it in more detail in my, in my book, and in my lectures, and I cite lots of research, showing that, you know, this is not something I thought up in the shower this morning, there's there's research demonstrating the destructive effects of conditional parenting that's been done all over the world. The present question of how to help parents move past this, especially if they were raised and taught as children in a conditionally affectionate environment. That's, that's tough, but it's not impossible. It begins by becoming aware of the distinction. You know, for a lot of people, it's a huge jaw dropping, and very unsettling revelation, to realise that praise is as bad as other rewards, which in turn are as bad as punishment that this is all on a continuum of doing too. Especially if you actually thought you were doing it, right. Because you were saying Good job, you know, instead of hitting your kid, and you know, there are degrees of this, you know, yeah, yeah. For example, is is spanking a child worse than a timeout? Yes, physical violence teaches physical violence, among other things. Sure. But to say that a timeout is better than that is as bad as true as saying that spanking a kid is better than shooting him, you know, much of a point of reference. And similarly for, for praise, that the key point is to realise that we need to move past all of this doing to all of this conditionality. And the next step, after gulping and realising that this makes sense, or if you're sceptical looking at the research is to cut conversations with a co parent, if you're lucky enough to have one, and and other people who you are in your circle and to talk with the child him or herself. If the child is old enough to begin by taking the child in on it and say, you know, here's something I just heard in a podcast or read in a book, saying that, you know, kids, kids who are praised a lot, you know, like, feel good in a way but in another way feel bad because they feel like they're being controlled. Does that make sense to you? And then to say, what can we do in our relationship so you feel loved no matter what, you know, obviously, a four year old is gonna, maybe struggling with that question much more than a 14 year old. But the very process of bringing the child in on it means that The transition from a doing to to a working with family is itself being done in a working with way rather than you're just switching from doing rewards to kids to doing the absence of rewards to kids. And then you know, you need to check yourself periodically to reflect, to think about, could this have gone better? You know, did when we had a problem last night? You know, how could my parenting have improved? Did I do most of the talking? Instead of listening? You know, are these these rules that we have in the house? You know, your first reaction might be, well, if I can't use rewards and punishments, how am I going to get my kid to do this stuff? Yeah, I would go back a step and ask, Does this really need to be done? And who decided this and whom does it benefit? The these? This is the tougher thing that most parenting books won't do. Most parenting books begin with the premise that whatever the parent wants, that's automatically legitimate. Now, the only question is to find some tricks for getting obedience. Whereas I invite parents to start by saying, if the kid isn't doing what we what we're telling them, maybe the problem is with what we're telling them not with the kid. Yeah, very hard for people who are not ready to, to, because they sort of like their position of authority, or don't really trust children or human beings for that matter, and have this sort of dark view that people have to be bludgeoned into compliance. Most parenting books are really despite the fancy language just about compliance, not about helping kids to become independent thinkers, and morally sophistic sophisticated, you know, contented people. So I always start my workshops by asking what are your long term goals for your kids? And then what I do for a living is to say to people, you say you want this? So why in the world, are you still doing that?

22:05 Shelley

Yeah. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, like you said, the awareness of this is probably one of the biggest things then reflecting on what we are doing and what happens with our kids. Seeing whether, you know, talking to them listening, and doing more listening than than talking, I think these are really big steps that parents can take to, to parenting in this way.

22:32 Alfie

Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons punishments and rewards backfire, according to the research, is that they are experienced correctly as controlling, and people don't like being controlled. The next step beyond moving past those controlling things, is to go past the baseline past the zero point on to affirmatively supporting children's autonomy, their sense of having say about their lives, you know, kids learn to make good decisions by making decisions, yes, like, following directions. And so wherever kids are, developmentally, you know, our job, typically, is to bring them in on the process of designing things. Now, there are limits to this, again, based on their developmental capabilities, you know, a two year old should not have a choice about whether to be in a car seat when going in the car, for example, but But beyond some very basic things like that, there's a whole lot else that we could bring kids bring kids in on and in my book, I talk about some examples of that at all different age levels from toddlerhood, in fact, from infancy all the way into teenager out and and finding ways where, you know, we do more, more listening, Less talking, and not just listening, but active involvement in figuring out together, what what makes sense, how we can all contribute to the household, what to do when when we're feeling frustrated or angry, how to solve problems that come up. And it becomes a way of supporting kids intellectual, social and moral development all at once, by by bringing them in on the process. But it's very hard to do that if you're used to being the king or queen of your house.

24:35 Shelley

Yeah, it requires a shift a shift in thinking and shifting lens from the parent, doesn't it?

24:44 Alfie

Yes, it's a way not just what we do that's different, but even the way we we look at things the way we see them. It's not just about discipline. Similarly, it's about our whole relationship with kids, and it gets down to fair A very basic beliefs and assumptions we have, you know, you show me somebody who goes around praising little kids in a squeaky voice, job, I really liked them. And I'll show you somebody who probably is very cynical, about about children, who believes that if you don't catch kids being good, and then give them positive reinforcement for it, that it won't happen again, it was a fluke, which is a very dark and fortunately not substantiated view of children. There's a lot of beliefs, you know about psychology about children, philosophical and even theological beliefs that drive this control and order and obedience model. And unfortunately, even some of the newer books we have for parents, they talk about our language, you know, but they still ultimately are about getting compliance. And there's still ultimately involved some version of conditional parenting. So that's why I try to help people ask the radical deeper questions about this, not only about the methods we're using, but about what goals we want.

26:11 Shelley

Yes, and it is, it is about really coming back to that intention and understanding because sometimes we can have it have things dressed up. And I know, you talk a lot about the school system and schooling. And, you know, we probably don't have time for that today. But I just noticed within the school systems, the same sort of thing where we dress up control in just new language around, you know, maybe it's that it's a reflective learning practice practice or something, but the child still misses out on their sport time or their recess. You know, it's just coming back to really how it feels for the child. And, and listening to or questioning what we're doing, doesn't it?

26:57 Alfie

Yes. And there are implications for this with schooling which you're right, we don't have time to go into in which I've written about in other books, then applies not only to help kids act in school, but also to the learning itself, you know, with the use of marks or grades, for example, have been shown in study after study after study to make kids less excited about learning, and less likely to think deeply. And the problem is not kids who aren't motivated. The problem is, with kids often being asked to do stuff that there's no reason they should be doing cramming forgettable facts into short term memory to do well on a test is not meaningful learning. So of course, kids are resist doing it. But that's not an argument that you have to dangle good marks or other goodies in front of them to get it to do it. It's an invitation for educators with parents help to question the curriculum and the pedagogy. When kids are involved in collaborative, meaningful projects that help them to think carefully about the world and answer their own questions about how things work. You don't have to treat them like pets in order to get them to do it. So just as I said before, that often when parents say, Well, how can I? How do I get my kid to eat her vegetables? If I can't bribe her with dessert? How do I get my kids to clean his room? If I can't threaten him with missing out on a social function? Unless he does it? The real question is, let's ask about the premise. If kids are getting a basically nutritious diet, I don't think there's ever a food they should be made to eat. And similarly, you know, why should kids have to keep their room as neat as you want to keep your steps that's the kids room. And justice that's true at home, by questioning the assumptions about what it is we're trying to make kids do rather than just looking for clever ways to make them do it. So it isn't school, that the problem is with the things that they're being made to do in this case. You know, multiply a bunch of naked numbers or, or slog through a corporate textbook rather than doing meaningful learning. The problem is with what the adults are asking the kids are telling the kids to do. Stuff the answer is not to look for a more efficient technique for compliance. And so there are these interesting parallels between home and school. In both cases, when we treat kids with respect, when we look at it from their point of view, when we give them more say about what's going on, then we no longer have the need to do what we know is counterproductive, namely bribing or threatening them and to obey.

29:53 Shelley

Alfie, thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find you and to connect Did you further?

30:01Alfie

Well, they can find all sorts of stuff that I have written on my website, which is Alfie Kohn ALFIEKOHN dot O R G, that has information not only about unconditional parenting but about my other books, both for parents and teachers, and hundreds of articles that are available for free information about lectures, all that stuff.

30:27 Shelley

Yes, and I would just say even a Google search, you can listen to YouTube clips and videos and lectures of of your work if people are wanting to find out more. It's yeah, I want to thank you very much for being a leader in this field, for helping shift the paradigm for so many parents, teachers, and educators. I'm very grateful. And I know that your work is a is a legacy really, you’re a forefather of, you know, changing this paradigm. So thank you very much. Appreciate your interest. Take care.

Shelley

So how did you find that chat, I really wanted to just come in here to say, again, thank you to Alfie for his time, I really wanted to honour his, you know, half an hour of time that he put aside to chat, so I didn't, I didn't want to go over that. So that's why it kind of ended pretty quickly. And, you know, I really respect his time. So thank you for that. I also wanted to just check in with you around how you're feeling, hearing some of the things he talks about, because I wanted to send you lots of love, if there was any feelings coming up around or but we we've done that, and we've done sticker charts, and we've done rewards. And sometimes we use, you know, a bribe here and there, and I really wanted to send lots of love to you, for any feelings that have come up around hearing him talk, it is hard, it's hard, because often this is the paradigm that we were brought up in. And you know, 30 years ago, this is it was very normal, and was very behaviourist. And we're shifting away from that, and it can be really hard. And I certainly know that when I'm tired. And when I'm under resourced myself, I, you know, will revert back to ways that I don't want to parent I might revert back to, you know, threatening my child or, or bribing them or or wanting to, and then very quickly, my children know now that they will say No, Mum, you won't do that. Which is true, I won't. And so I've had a conversation with them. And I've come alongside them and say and said, You know, I don't we don't want to parent using threats and bribes and rewards and things. And so when mum and dad might, it might slip out or be No, it's often because we have our own feelings going on. And you can pull us up on that. And that gives our children's and power. And it can be really hard as the parents, so I just want to send you lots of love, it says feelings coming up, it is really hard when you take away all of these things, then what is left. And really what is left is our relationship with our child and our children and how they feel our love and how they feel respected by us and how connected they are to us. And that is a big part of what I talk about here that really those things are vital and are key for long term, long term parenting for, you know, for the outcomes at the end when they're adults. You know, connection and relationship. It really is key. When I really loved how he spoke about one hour awareness when we understand the impacts, that there's long term things, you know that controlling children's behaviour or rewarding them, you know, really undermines their self esteem. And he talks a lot in other books about self esteem. And then also reflecting on a situation how did that go last night that probably wasn't great. I can go and apologise. I can go and say to my child, I'm really sorry. I can see how that would have made you feel. And I'm sorry for the way I reacted or the way I responded. And the repair part of when we stuff up as a parent. The repair part is so important and vital in maintaining integrity within this relationship within the parent child relationship. And so I know sometimes the mainstream way or you might have heard like the Don't ever apologise to your child because then you lose power and then you you know, then they won't know who's boss. That is old paradigm thinking. And it's not about who's right or wrong, it is not about who's the boss, it's about how that would have made the child feel. And if we have done something that

35:21

isn't nice, then going and apologising has a huge impact. So reflecting on our behaviour, reflecting on how that would have felt for the child, and I really loved how you just mentioned coming alongside and asking your children, giving them autonomy and choice and a say, an agency in their lives, really, is really powerful in terms of, you know, building that relationship and connection and trust between you. So I wanted to just highlight those things and send you lots of love if you have been doing these things. And, you know, any feelings come up to have so much compassion for yourselves. Because you know, we don't know any differently. And then when we know differently, we can, we can change if we if we want to, and nothing is nothing's unchangeable. You know, we can, we can, even if we've been parenting this way, and we've got teenagers, we can sit down with them and say, Hey, I've I've really heard some things, you know, and I've learned some things like he said, and instead of them looking, I'm really thinking about how that would met would have made you feel I'm really sorry, how can we do this differently. And that is really powerful for for our children. 

Thank you so much for listening. I would love to know your thoughts and feelings and to continue the conversation. You can connect with me on Instagram and Facebook @_Shelleyclarke_ 

If you'd like to keep in the loop for all my resources and offerings as they happen, you can join my mailing list at www.shelleyclarke.com

Thank you for all you're doing. Your parenting is important and powerful. Have a lovely day. Bye for now.