Helping our Babies Sleep through with Helena Mooney

In this episode Shelley chats with certified Hand in Hand parenting instructor and Aware parenting instructor Helena Mooney. Helena is also a life coach and mother of two children,  with her wealth of knowledge and experience she loves supporting parents to have the best experience possible - when pregnant, giving birth and being a parent.

In this episode you'll learn about:
- the incredible, life-changing experience Helena had with her 3 week old baby that set the trajectory of her work now
-  how searching for someone who had similar parenting values led Helena to discovering Marion Rose
- why often as Mum's when we are at a loss we feed our babies into submission
 - how ignoring feelings during the day means they accumulate later in the day to create what is commonly known as 'witching hour'
- a helpful routine you can get into with your newborn to listen to feelings and have a much better nights sleep for all

If you are wanting to cultivate an emotionally safe environment for your newborn and reap the sleep benefits in the process,  then this is the podcast episode for you!

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Continue the conversation with Shelley here:
https://www.facebook.com/shelleyclarkemindbodyparenting
https://www.instagram.com/_shelleyclarke_/

Find Helena Mooney here:
https://parentingwithplay.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/ParentingwithPlaywithHelenaMooney
https://www.instagram.com/helenamooney_parentingwithplay/

This podcast is produced by Nikki O'Brien from Quintessential Being

Transcript

 Shelley Clarke  00:00

I wish to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I live on. I pay my respects to the Kaurna people elders past and present, and honour their ongoing traditions. Welcome to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host, Shelley Clark. Here I talk about all things mind and body and how this relates to ourselves and our parenting. I envision a world where children are seen and heard, and parents feel supported and less alone. Join me here in the power of story, expert knowledge and lived experiences. Let's dive in. Today's episode is brought to you by kids in Adelaide. For all the best events, activities, places to visit and things to do with your kids in Adelaide and around South Australia. Visit www.kidsinadelaide.com.au. Welcome back to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host Shelley Clarke. And today I'm very excited to be chatting with our guest Helena Mooney. Helena is a certified Hand in Hand parenting instructor and aware parenting instructor, a life coach and mother of two children 14 and nine years old. She has her own amazing podcast parenting with play, where she talks all about playful ways to be with our children. She has a wealth of knowledge and experience in listening to and supporting parents. So thank you, Helena. Welcome.

01:31

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Shelley Clarke  01:33

It's so good to chat with you. We've talked before for your podcast. So yeah, I was really excited to have you on mine. So do you want to start by sharing a little bit more about what you do? And how you came to be doing this? You know, your journey and story?

01:51

Yeah, sure. So as you said, I work with mums primarily, but also dads to helping them become more aware of what's going on for their children so that they can really help them. And it often presents through tricky behaviour, challenging behaviour, like sleep, which we're gonna be talking about today. But also, you know, aggression or anxiety from babies, you know, babies who aren't sleeping and want feeding, well, what have you all the way up through to? Well, my child isn't my eldest is now 14. So I'm working with parents up until the tween and the young teenage as well, because the same principles apply. And that's what I love about a web parenting and hand in hand parenting, because once you understand those principles, you can help your children whatever the age, I came into it, when will I actually listened to her cry, which would talk about when my eldest was three weeks old, and I had an incredible, like, almost life changing experience. But then I totally forgot about it and rejected it. Because it was so strange, it was really unusual way of being with our children, and babies in particular. And it wasn't until Emily got to be about 10,11 months old. And she wasn't sleeping. She was having tantrums and she wasn't even yet one. And this was the complete opposite of what I thought I was going to have. I thought if I follow a really gentle attachment based parenting approach, carry her everywhere breastfeed on demand, never let her cry, talk to her really beautifully and gently and be really patient that I'd have this sort of chilled out relaxed baby. And this amazing relationship really wasn't like that. It was the total opposite. And I knew very clearly what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to do punishments and shame and leaving them to cry, leaving her to cry on her own. So I sort of rejected all of that. But then I'm going well, I really don't know what to do instead. And so I found Marian rose, as you did. And and it was just like, oh my gosh, this this is like the book for our babies. It's, it's how we it's understanding really deeply what we all need, but applying it to babies. And yes,

Shelley Clarke  04:02

yes. So amazing. And I love that both of us are hand in hand and aware parenting, there's only about three of this, I think that have trained, only three or four instructors that are trained in both. So I really love that we both have that understanding of both paradigms. And so tell me a little bit more about that experience that you just talked about with listening to your baby

04:27

Yeah. First one. Yeah. So Emily was three weeks old and I we'd had a lovely water birth, which I was really keen on having I was breastfeeding on demand. And my husband was down the pub because he wanted to wet the baby’s head. You know, he was like going, well, I've, I've just had a baby. So I'm going out and celebrating. Okay, that's great. And my mom was due to come out. And I was one of the first ones of my friends to have a baby and the ones who had had it had their babies before me. They were doing a completely different way of responding to their baby. So I felt very much on my own and this is Evening, in particular, Emily just would not stop crying. And I was like feeding her. I was just putting her on the boob because I was going, I don't know what else to do. And then she was like spewing milk because she was, I was over feeding her and she was still crying. And I was walking around and patting and singing and doing all the things, all the things. And then here in Australia, we have the Australian breastfeeding Association. And this is 14 years ago. And they weren't as sophisticated with their set up as they are now. And so you had to call a number and then somebody maybe called you back. And anyway, I didn't get, couldn't get through anywhere there. I couldn't get a hold of anybody. I had no idea what to do. And then I had this pile of books. Next to the Chair, I'd breastfeed and one of them was the calmbirth book. And at the back of it was the summary of a were baby written by Marion. Yeah. And I was going, well, I've tried everything else. I will just do this instead. So I sat there, and I held Emily in my arms, and was with her when she cried. And it wasn't it was extraordinary. It, I get goosebumps actually. Now thinking about it, because I knew that she was fed she was being held by me she her nappy was far you know, fresh nappy, she she had everything all of her physical needs were met. And in nothing else was working. So just to hold her and be with her when she was crying. And she cried and cried and cried. And you know, you have moments, little crises of confidence go is this all right, but I didn't know what else to do. So nothing else worked. So let's keep going. And at the end of it, she just lay there so calmly, and she just looked me in the eye and there was such a peacefulness about her, it was extraordinary. And then she just sort of gently fell asleep for a little while I'm going this is amazing. Like, normally I'd fed, you know, I'd sort of almost feed her into submission to go to sleep. And at the time I was going, I'm going to remember this. And it just felt so significant. I'm going to remember this when you're a screaming teenager, because that's what I thought it was going to be like, yeah. And I thought this was a we've had a really special connection here. And then after we, I just sat there so peaceful, it was amazing. And then after wash, you sort of woke up and then I went, I want to have a bath. And so I put tea lights around the bath was going this is amazing. Anyway, then my mum came out who didn't do any of this, nobody around me did it. And I just totally forgot about it. I just thought this is a weird thing. Because who, who holds a baby while they cry? Normally, I'd do everything possible to stop crying, yeah. Or the way that my mum learned and I was brought up was you just put the baby in the pram at the end of the garden with a cat net over it to stop the cat from smothering you to death. And you just leave the baby out. Says you just leave them to cry. Or you might put the vacuum on outside the baby's room because that drowns out the noise of the baby crying. So you either have the two extremes either leaving the baby to cry or doing everything possible to stop the baby from crying. And neither of them are particularly satisfying or not helpful for their baby. So thank goodness for aware parenting. Because this way of and I have done quite a lot of personal development before becoming a mum. So learning about emotions and acknowledging that it was okay for me to have emotions and yet to be with them and actively learning that really. So then to suddenly have your baby the most precious innocent little being and then going, Okay, well, I'm just gonna ignore everything that is helpful for me and just do this baby thing. Yeah. So to then be with your baby. I know you're you're upset about something and I'm here and I'm listening and I love you. And then they cry and then they finish and then they've this this calm and peacefulness. So yeah, that's how I really came into

Shelley Clarke  08:47

amazing. And then you said you like, you know, obviously your mum came out. And then you know, everyone else around you wasn't doing this way. And there were no Facebook groups. No, no podcast? No. 14 years ago, it was it was Marion writing an article in the back of the calmbirth book. Yeah, kind of, you know, people, a lot of people found it that way. And so you know, you're one of the people that have been doing this in Australia for for a longer period of time. So yeah, no one else was doing it around you. Obviously. Then you said around a year. Things. Yeah, just like breaking

09:25

point. Yeah, I was exhausted. And she wasn't sleeping. And we were in England actually visiting family. There was some people around me who'd had a baby similar age, and my husband's going, this is brilliant. You put the baby in the sleeping bag, you put the baby in the cart, you close the door, and you walk away. This is amazing. Why can't we do that? And I'm like, but I don't want to do that. But clearly what I was doing, which was just having her on the boob all the time just wasn't working. So then a friend said, Look you you should check this out. This looks really cool. With Marion And then that was our first session with Marion. Ah, the relief of finding something that was in line with what I wanted and my values of how to be with them as a mom with my baby, that was also really practical and was going to help her sleep better and just life to become much easier.

Shelley Clarke  10:21

We have said, I've such a similar experience of you know, not not I didn't listen to my kids at three weeks old, or until the last one. But I certainly can relate to being stuck with like, well, I didn't really want to leave them to cry. And I also didn't want to, like I was feeding all the time and fixing all the time and suppressing feelings. And it wasn't working. No one was sleeping. And we're walking the baby around the block at you know, in the pram at 2am in the morning thinking Why am I the only one that is out here? Where i What's wrong? Why? What's wrong with me? What have I done wrong to have a baby that doesn't sleep? And so finding another way was a game changer for us as well. Do you want to talk to and I also want to just preference as well, if people are listening, and they have done any of these things, like in terms of leaving babies to cry, or you know, I just want to send a lot of love and compassion. Because we don't know what we don't know. Until we know something different.

11:30

And even when we do know something different, it can be really hard. It's really,

Shelley Clarke  11:34

really hard. And so there is no judgement on what we have done in the past. Or you know, anything that in the choices because sometimes we need to do those things for our own sanity and mental health and other things. So absolutely. When we talk about leaving babies to cry, just want to say that as well to anyone listening, there's Yes, feelings coming up.

11:55

That's a really good point, because my mum obviously loved me very much. And that was just the way that it was done then and that's what we're taught and, and also how we view babies as a society as well. So we all do things that we can do it the best. And when we're sleep deprived as well, we'll just do anything for sleep. Yeah,

Shelley Clarke  12:14

absolutely. So I'm sending lots of love and compassion for things, if we're coming across this approach. I also want to say if you're coming across this approach, at when you've got a seven 810 14 year old, that it's never too late to start listening to your kids feelings, or your child's feelings, and connect and use play. And you know, switch to having kind of connection is the key. It is never too late. So I just also, as we are talking about these things today around babies and younger kids, if you think oh my gosh, I've missed the boat. You haven't. And that a lot of like you said before, a lot of the things that we talk about for babies and sleep and what what they need, teenagers need? Yeah, it's irrelevant. It's the same, you just adjust it to fit your kids. So, you know, if you are listening, you've got older kids, you know, you can apply these things that we talked about.

13:08

Yeah, and don't feel that we've stuffed up your child by not doing this. I mean, because on one hand, we've all stuffed up our children, we've all done things that are really helpful. And we also get I was so fortunate to have discovered were parenting when I did, but other people that usually what is your

Shelley Clarke  13:27

so my daughter was one and my son would have been about three or four, close, sort of three and a half, nearly four. And then our third was right from the start. So I've seen what it looks like when we start at different ages. And we can you know, you can use play, you can heal. And like you said, we've all done things to our kids that have caused hurts even the most loving and gentle and caring. Often we may not have been listening to their feelings because we've been suppressing it. And so you know, we can shift and heal at any, any age. Yeah. So just wanted to add that bit in there. But so we've go back to your 12 months down the track. And you've got you're in England, you've got those two different ways of being. And you had that first session with Marian what is that third way? What is that if you if we want to talk a little bit more about what does that look like for someone that has a baby now that sleep is really hard come by? What is that third way that we talk about?

14:32

Yeah, it's really about connecting with your baby with however they're feeling. And obviously we want our babies to be really happy and we do everything possible to make them happy and comfortable. But it's inevitable that they're going to find things difficult. And this is everyday activities like bright lights, loud noises that you're distracted, you might not respond as quickly as they want you to. But it can also mean like if you've had a difficult birth there's been some separation there. So everything feeds into it. And so you're connecting with your baby with how they are, which means that if you know you've met their physical needs, if you know you've fed them, and they're warm, and they're safe, and they're with you, then the fact that they're crying or perhaps for some people screaming, there's a really good reason for that. And we don't attribute emotional states with our babies unless they're happy. Yeah. And babies feel emotions, just like we feel emotions, in fact, sometimes more vividly, because it's so overwhelming what they're going through, there's got a whole new world. So the third way is, instead of ignoring, or distracting, or repressing by putting boob and mouth and dummies, and trying to fix it, it's, it's about, ah, I'm here, I'm with you. And I'm listening. And allow and, you know, on a practical level, it really is holding your baby in your arms whilst they cry, and you offer them gentle eye contact, perhaps gentle words, not too much, and your beautiful touch and your presence and you they just will cry, and cry and cry in your arms. And what's amazing, is that sometimes when you're listening to a baby crying, you can think this is never going to stop. There. Is this like bottomless pit of crying. Yeah, but actually what it is, as I described, in that first case, with Emily, your baby was in cry until they don't need to cry anymore. Yeah. And they've released their stress. And then they're back to being relaxed. And they you can tell that because they're there physically, their body is relaxed, and they've got eye contact, gentle eye contact. And then the other way of telling is that they actually sleep so much better.

Shelley Clarke  16:47

So tell us a little bit more about that. What does that look like? So what was your experience? When you started to listen what happened with Well, I

16:54

was very stressed to begin with, because I was going Oh, my God. Yeah, this is also really important. The key tenant of hand in hand and the way parenting is to look after ourselves. Yes. So it's really important that, you know, if we're listening, listening to our babies, and we need to be listened to as well. So I initially I was quite stressed, because, oh, my God. But what I did notice was, she stopped hitting me, actually, she, she was happier. And it's quite interesting. The more we listen to our babies and short young children cry, the happier they are, which seems a paradox because you think, yeah, I'm trying to do anything to make them happy. Yeah. And then after a while, she's she started sleeping. Oh, my God, I didn't have to feed her all the time, I was just getting sick to death of breastfeeding, I was going, I can't keep doing this, if, if she's on me all the time, we get touched out. So I was noticing that she was able to sort of Pootle around by herself, you know, she started to crawl and walk. And she was, there was just a more of a calmness about her.

Shelley Clarke  17:58

Yes, a level of her being kind of back in her in her body present with herself, as opposed to, we know that when feelings are accumulated in our body, there's tension. And often that then comes out in their behaviours or in their sleep. And so I love that. And I've certainly noticed that as well. And that was a game changer for us, too, was when I had this piece around. Oh, listening to feelings. Okay, so I listened to my daughter. And she started to sleep through the night. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, have I not been listening to her? And it was such a, like a penny drop for me. So, you know, in terms of that third way, I just didn't even think about that they that crying was a good thing.

18:54

No. And it requires a significant paradigm shift to go actually crying is a good thing. And but it is very different to crying on their own, which is what most of us associate with crying babies. Yeah, we can get really stressed about a baby crying because we associated with being a baby being abandoned on their own and it's straight and that is stressful for a baby. It does add to stress, but a baby crying with you, the person who loves them the most in the world is so healing. Just in the same way if I was upset, and I went to a room and just cried on my own, doesn't help with surely if I came and cried with you, I'd be like, Oh my gosh, you understand me? You hear me? You love me throughout this and I feel so much better.

Shelley Clarke  19:39

Yeah. Yes, the healing is in the crying with someone else's presence. That loving presence is so important, because I was with a mother and a baby and we'll talk a bit more about what how you support mums and babies in a minute, but I was with a mother and a baby just this week. And you know, we were listening. We'll Listening to little, Bob's cry. And I having me there as well was just sort of to support them both and like, this is okay. She's okay. She's, you know, moving through it. But what it does teach is that what they're experiencing the feelings that they're feeling at the moment are okay, there's nothing to be scared of, there's nothing to be worried about, like the caregiver, the parent isn't stressed by this, you know, because you're listening and grounded, which is why it's important to try and be listening, like grounded and work through our own stuff. We're sending the signal that these feelings are safe and okay to feel. And once they feel them and move through them, they are really relaxed.

20:46

And they've gone. And as a society, we sort of were really scared of feelings. Yeah. Yeah, they're all ages. And it's sort of an active, like, I had to actively No, it's okay. It's okay that I was angry, or that I get angry, I only realised it was okay for me to be angry at age 30. Or, you know, I've been thought of as too emotional. But actually, that's just a sign of what's going on for you. And when you have the support, you move through it, and you come out the other side. And, and it's different to talking. And so often what happens is when your baby turns into a toddler, and then they start to talk, well, it's, we think, Oh, usual words, explain what's going on describe it. But it's very different. We need to feel the feelings to go through to release them. It's not the same as just talking.

Shelley Clarke  21:30

Yes. Do you want to talk a little bit more? So if a parent says if a kid is a toddler is having a meltdown or crying? And a parent says Use your words? Like, instead of that, what would you recommend that they do?

21:42

Well, first of all, is to understand that when you you actually want your child to be in the emotions? Yes. And when you say Use your words, you draw them out of their emotional part of the brain into the thinking part of the brain. And that interrupts the healing process. It's sort of like, oh, you can't think straight and then you go, Oh, okay. And then you think, but yes, the emotions are still stuck in there. Yeah. So actually, what you want to do is just really be an offer empathy, and just go, I know, this is really hard. I know you want another biscuit. And you don't talk too much. Because again, if you talk too much, then that draws them out, too. So you just want to offer warmth, and empathy, and allow your child to cry with you, not sending them off, but crying with you, because they come through it. And it's really extraordinary. Because when you see them at the end, like my daughter would just suddenly get up and do a ballet move. And she's off. And I'm like, Oh, my God, that was exhausting. But she's done. And so you don't need to talk about it and analyse it and what's going on for you. It can just be that, that that that's the fixing. That's the healing part. Yeah, is moving through the crying and like if I would imagine most people listening, you know, you've had a good cry with a friend, we talked about it being a good cry. And how you feel at the end of it, you just feel relaxed, your mind actually becomes clearer. Whatever was you were struggling with, you'd like you couldn't make a decision or you didn't know what to do. Or you have a good cry with somebody who's believes in you. And then you go, Oh, you know what, I'm gonna do this at the end. Yeah. Okay. Good. And you're done. Done. Yeah. Amazing. It is incredible.

Shelley Clarke  23:20

And even like, going back to listening with the mom and baby the other day for me, this baby had a huge big cry. And we held her throat and said, This is okay, when she's moving through it. This is Yep, her listening wave right here with you. And then she opened her eyes and stared at her mum. And with the clearest eyes and, and just this intent, and the mum was like, wow. And then I was like, Yeah. And it was like this presents that, that she she hadn't experienced yet of. Wow, she knows I'm stitching note. She's really looking at me in a different way of like, Thank you for listening to me. There was just this moment that gives me goosebumps. Yeah, that was like, wow, that is deep connection. That baby felt heard and seen and deeply relaxed in its body. And the mum was like, Oh, my gosh, I get this now. I, you know, being able to support parents through that because I know you do a lot of listening with during the talk a little bit more about that with mums and babies and helping them to

24:34

well, similar to what you've just described, it's offering that presents to the mum to reassure because I think our role is not to often what we do in society as I've seen it, it's like in the maternity system, we've jumped towards the baby and Okay, what does the baby need? But what we need to do is actually support mums and parents because as you as a mum, you're the best person to support your baby. Not a professional, not anybody else. Your baby wants to you yeah So our role is to support mums and dads, but isn't primarily mums to begin with, to then listen to their, to their baby. So, you know, I've done that on Zoom calls, I've done that in person and just having that presence and offering that reassurance is amazing. And one baby in particular really stood out similar story to us that was with the mom and the mom came to a class and she was all frazzled. And you know, the baby's like crying all the time, juggling and on the boob for the whole time, we're talking and then sat with her afterwards and baby cry for about 10 minutes just bawling her eyes out and I'm there with the moms and it's okay, it's okay. Baby stopped and exactly how you described to calm this lady looked at her mom, his mom, biggest smile on his face, then he turned towards me, gave me the most enormous smile. Wow, it was extraordinary. It was it was textbook, you know, it was amazing. And, and that experience, just change that mom's life, you know, change that baby's life, because that just opens up a whole new way of being with your baby that you can see. So clearly how different your baby is. And just that relaxed us in that presence and let Joy baby had the biggest smile on the face. Whereas 20 minutes earlier was grisly and out of sorts, and oh, moving body and just squirmy and yeah, it's amazing. So for us to support, it's such a gift for us, too, isn't it as a mom and a baby? It's just amazing.

Shelley Clarke  26:31

Absolutely, I find it's probably one of the most rewarding things that I get to do is support new parents in this way, because it is life changing for everybody. Yeah. What would you say? Like, okay, if someone has, you know, a six month or a 12 month old or some, you know, they've they've been a few months in and they have been feeding or, you know, jiggling or patting or doing these things? How would you? How would they start to listen in? And especially how do they determine the difference between are they hungry? Or are they needing a good cry? Because I know that's something that a lot of parents and mothers find hard, just like, but what happens if they are actually hungry, hungry? And, you know, then they feel bad that they're not like meeting the need for hunger? And how do I you know,

27:23

what do I do? Yeah, because that's the biggest question, really, how can I tell the difference. So I always like to offer the feed your baby first and feed them. So you know that they're, they're fed and that they're not gonna be hungry. And then when they're a bit away from naptime, you want them to be awake. So you fed them and then you just have them in your lap. And you have when you let them you just offering connection, because at the heart of this is about connection. Yeah. So you hold them and you just COO and just delight in your baby and just like gaze at them, and just, and obviously, you know, a newborn or a little baby will just lie placidly in your arms, whereas a baby to toddler is a bit more vibrant, but still just being with you. And you offer that, that calmness and that delight in them. And then particularly the young babies will just often just start to cry of their own accord. And they might look away a bit, they might cry a bit and then close their eyes. Or they might then look away. And they might back arch depending on the age of the baby and start to get a bit physical, but the crying happens spontaneously. And so because you know, you've just fed them, you know that it's not hunger. Yeah. As long as you have to reassure yourself and I also I also often suggest just having a timer near you. So you can just put it on and so you know, it's like, it's just five minutes. Yes, five minutes to begin with. So feels like an eternity does feel

Shelley Clarke  28:48

like it does feel like a long time and you're listening to a baby cry five minutes was like, Oh my gosh, this is not okay. But as we start to listen more, you realise that actually this does in the start, and you get to know your baby, you get to know their cries, and you can work out what's the hunger cry, and hunger signs and what's, you know, the emotional cry underneath? And so if someone's having trouble with sleep at night time, what do you then any other tips or things that you would recommend or bring in to support

29:22

that? Yeah, really to focus on listening during the day? Yeah. Because when it's at nighttime, in the middle of the night, you're tired. The last thing you want to do is listen to a screaming baby, when you're starting this journey, and you're worried about neighbours and partners and everything. So I often suggest in the morning, when you have you're feeling fairly awake as much as possible. And like I said, You fed your baby and that's when you spend time and I would say, you know you've got a list of things to do. And if you're at home with your baby, it's quite mundane things probably like put the washing on prepare food. So you've got your sort of mental checklist thing to do. So this is this is one thing extra to add to your to do list and tick it off when you've done it. Because it's just as important and you're not wasting your time you should be doing other things include factor that into your day schedule it into your days in the morning, have a listen to crying and the crying could could go on for like an hour. Yeah. Yeah, so allow that time. And it's such a worthwhile investment. Also a nap times just before going to sleep is often a classic time when babies do cry spontaneously. And actually, the more that you listened to in the day, particularly in the morning, last night, you are to have the witching hour, which was the classic cluster, massive feeling you're trying to get food on and getting sleep and it's just everybody's tired. And Ratty. Yep. Yeah. So I would listen to my son's I've just listened to my son from birth, and his big sister was six years older, so I would drop me off at school, come home, listen to George for like a good hour, he would then sleep and then I'd have to go. Because second child, you've just got to cart them around the place, you can't do routines. And then I would take him to school. And because he was baby, everybody was holding him he was just being taken off left, right and centre. And everybody commented on what a chilled baby he was. And that was because I've listened to him howling in my arms for an hour in the morning. And

Shelley Clarke  31:24

yeah, I just love that. And I love the fact that you talked about scheduling and in and making time for that throughout the day or during the day or whenever you can fit that in during the day will pay tenfold at nighttime. And we think how can listening, you know, during the day change the Night Waking at nighttime, but it does it

31:47

because your baby's not carrying the feelings. Yes. So it could be upset feelings from things that are happening that day. Or it could be from things that happened in the past, but they're not carrying it, they've had that chance to release it, your baby is going to cry at some point. So it's far better, that it's at a time that's convenient to you, when you're feeling resourced to be able to do it. So yeah, what you do during the day will determine how they are at night.

Shelley Clarke  32:11

Yeah. And because I've even said that to even just someone yesterday around, they're like two or three year old four year old, their toddler was waking a lot at nighttime. And I was like let's, you know, plan, create some space, we often have to create some space in the day for the feelings. Yes. And do want to talk a little bit about that, and how what that would look like for an older child of, you know, three or four that aren't sleeping? Well.

32:43

Yeah, it would be having time for connection for just as you know, instead of having your baby in your arms, you've got your child. And so you do something called special time, which is a hand in hand term, where you just focus on whatever your child wants to do. And you pour in all of your attention. And you, you know, you delight in them. So they soak that in, then that comes to an end. And then there might be feelings that come up as a result of that. Yep. So you then giving them attention, you know that you're meeting their need for connection and attention. And then when the feelings bubble up, so you might have say, half an hour and it perhaps they come home from daycare, and you try and factor if you factor in time before it's and then quickly dinner bath bed, and you say you've got half an hour spare you might want to dedicate the first 10 minutes to beautiful playing connection. Knowing that when that finishes, you've then got about 20 minutes time up your sleeve to then listen to any upsets because children will they sometimes need something to push up against. So the end of special time is a really good time. And they might my daughter used to say you never play with me and I'm going I just have

33:55

to leave. They just need something to cry about, don't

33:58

they? Yes, something tangible that you can cry about. So factor that in allow for half an hour say when you come home from from pickup, or if you've been if you're together all day, and you might do something an activity in the morning, allow that time as you say create that space in the day to allow some feelings. But you do it with the intention not right, right. You need to have a cry. I'm here to listen to your cry. You do it. I'm here to connect with you. And that's why play is so brilliant. Yeah. Because that often brings the feelings up you giggle that sort of loosens the tension and then giggle might turn into a cry and then might turn back into a giggle again. There's a real fluidity to those emotions.

Shelley Clarke  34:39

Yes. And I really love how you highlighted our intention around that our kids are so acutely aware of our intention. And they will if we have any sort of agenda of you know, you need to have a cry or you need to get out of the bath right now and you need to do what Whatever it is, the play won't work or the thing won't actually shift because they really feel that. So I love that you mentioned that because it is about primarily it's about connection. It's about meeting them, connecting with them and seeing, you know, seeing what's there.

35:17

Yeah, and I just remembering now I used to, before I discovered were parenting, I would lie there for hours next to Emily. Because we co slept and I thought all co sleeping was going to fix it. Yeah, because if I'm there, then that's gonna that's gonna help her sleep easily. And I would lie there going, just be calm, be calm, try and relax your body. So I was trying to relax myself to sort of convey relaxed pneus to Emily. But inside, I'm screaming when you just go to sleep. Yeah, I wasn't relaxed. Emily was relaxed. And the whole thing, it was no wonder it would take ages. I mean, I can't even think how many hours I would lie there pretending that I was calm. So that's why, again, with bedtimes doing some rambunctious play some high energy play, perhaps not with your little babies, but you can do as they get older. To begin with, it's really focused on the crying and connecting and the things that but then as they get older, just a little playfulness. And as they're crawling around, you could do a little chasing game on the bed, something where it elicits laughter and fun and playfulness. And then it might lead into a cry. But having that playfulness before bedtime, really helps. And it goes counter to what we think because we think, oh, we need to make everything calm and quiet. If your child is leaping around the place, that's not a connecting way to be with them. Calm down, now

Shelley Clarke  36:38

carved out. Absolutely. I love that. And it's so true, because we think, and we get so many messages of like, you need to calm your child down so that they can get off to sleep. But all of a sudden, the parents lay there for an hour and a half. Because they've done a meditation, they've used their oils, they've done a massage. They've thought their read some stories, they're doing all this, they're laying there, like you said, the parents like go to sleep and agitated and the kids agitated because it's still they've still got energy bouncing around in their body. And everyone's ends up frustrated, and it takes a long time to get off to sleep. It does. It's counterintuitive, but like you said, playing roughhousing rambunctious type play, to get their energy out is actually what the kids need.

37:29

Yes, especially for the older children. If they're at daycare in or away from you, they need to reconnect. And often when that's why, you know, having that perhaps half an hour when you come home from daycare is is really helpful, but because they've spent the whole day away from you. So even if you can't do that half an hour, then make bedtimes fun. And often bedtimes become this thing that parents dread, and you just just can't do this anymore. And so then we've got tension around bedtime, and it's just all a disaster, whereas bringing play actually lightens it up for us as well as our children. And it's a great point for reconnection getting energy out. giggling, which releases tension, and then it may lead into a cry or it may not. Yeah, it sort of depends how

Shelley Clarke  38:11

it goes. Yeah. And if a parent so in this is where I suppose reaching out and having support is really important. Because if a parent is hearing this and going, Oh, I hate play. People do to begin with, because that's what that you know, I talked about play a lot. And people like, oh, do I have to? And I'm like so what what would you say to that? What? What's your advice around working through those feelings that are there for us?

38:39

Just first of all know that you're not alone. Most parents would rather listen to a cry than play once you've got that head into Oh, yeah, crying most would rather sit there and listen to a cried and actually have to do play. Because we weren't paid for and played with us in this way. Like my parents play board games with me. And they were lovely. And but they never did chasing game with me wrestling on the bed. So it's really understandable that we find it hard. And we've got so many other things to do. So we just got Well, I'm just the mean mum because I've got to get dinner on and get bath and lower. So it's really understandable that you might find play hard. And I just think just keep playing really simple. Find a game that you love to do. And your child will love generally to do it with you from for my son, it's wrestling on the bed. Yeah, he would wrestle in bed all the time. And I get to a point where, okay, I'm done now. But if if he starts to go awry, and at bedtime, a five minute and again, that's the other thing. Doesn't have to take long. It could literally be a five minute wrestling game, and then you're done. Yeah. And that time invested in a five minute wrestling game is way better than lying there for an hour and

Shelley Clarke  39:47

a half. Yes, I agree. 100%. And I think having having a space to go and talk about like you said at the start our own feelings that come up in a listening partnership or support session. When with the instructor or someone to work through what comes up for us around play, that's been a big thing for me. And then I've been able to, you know, shift some of those feelings so I can show up and play. But like I said, it's only sometimes is much quicker. If we do a five minute roughhouse on the on the bed with a pillow fight, then laying there for an hour and a half, you actually get more energy.

40:23

You do. Yeah. You feel energised. I always liked my children a lot more after I played with them, because I feel more connected with them. And then once you start playing, then it becomes more of your way of being with your children. Like I wasn't necessarily particularly playful person at all. And I thought, actually, I, initially I thought parenting had to be really serious. Like we've got, we've got to teach our children that this is acceptable, this is not acceptable, and they gotta go sleep at this time. And all of this is actually we're here to enjoy ourselves. And play just brings such a lightness and fun to life.

Shelley Clarke  40:59

I love that so much. Because it's many people still feel like that, you know, I will if I if I play with my kid, then how will they learn to do the thing? Or how they learn to take this seriously, or whatever it might be? How would they learn right from wrong if I'm making everything playful, but it's actually that connection. And they learn all those things through observation of the way we treat them. And

41:25

yeah, and your child knows not to hit by age one they know not to hit. Yeah, and they know a lot of the things so a lot of it is not because they know or they didn't know, they're doing it for a really good reason, which is largely related to how they feel emotionally. So when you can meet their need for connection and help them release upset feelings, either through giggling or or crying, then they just naturally just delightful.

Shelley Clarke  41:51

Yes, yes. Absolutely. Any other tips around sleep for any age group? You know, we've talked about babies and listening to crying, and that will change sleep. We've talked about some toddler, you know, 234 year olds is roughhousing before bed that can often you know, change sleep and also listening to feelings at that age. Any other things like what do you do with a teenager? If they're anxious or a preteen tween a age? What does it look like for that age group? Because I know you've got older kids. So you want to just give us a little insight into some older kids?

42:32

Yeah, well, it's the same principle, it's connection. So even though they don't physically need you to put them to sleep, yeah, just going in there and just hanging out. So just hang out with your older child and just enter their world. And I just sort of go and lie on the bed and, and then when you're there, there's more relaxed pneus. And then they're more likely to tell you about their day. And they just like, I like feeling your love, even though initially you go, Oh, you're big, and I don't know what to do with you. Yeah, they really want us and they want that attention. And actually, I realised recently, I really don't see Emily at bedtime. Because I'm either putting my son to bed, or I often do sessions in the evenings or I've got things on. And so I've made a real effort going Why am I started reading her Jane Eyre the other day, I don't know, continue reading it. But having that connection, offering connection, and even with my son, who's eight now, don't be afraid of lying with your children for a while. And we often think oh, they should be independent sleepers by now. Need to make them and and that sets us up for such a battle for years, when in actual fact, if you met the need for closeness, like I live with my son, I mean, I can still fall asleep looks as if I'm so tired, but I live with him for 510 minutes. And then and then either leave him if he's happy to go sleep on his own, or he might have just fallen asleep easily. Don't feel you need to push for independent sleepers. Like he's perfectly capable of doing sleepovers at friend's houses. It's just it's just lovely to lie with them for a little bit. Yes,

Shelley Clarke  44:04

I love that. And we still live with our kids every night and we've got 10 year old, you know, because I think we forget that need for closeness. Yeah, there's a huge human need to, to connect and to be close to our caregivers, even through teenage years. And so I think that's a really beautiful point that we sometimes think, oh, they don't need us anymore. They're getting older. They can do it on their own. They don't you know, they kind of even push us away a bit sometimes. But actually when we stay with them and really check in and stay close with them. They need they actually need that. Yeah, they

44:41

do. They do because they're young. I mean, even though Emily's 14 That's still really young to me. It seems quite big compared to this to an eight year old but it's young. If you think back to how you were when you were 14. Yeah. Really need your parents and you want them. You want them in a loving presence in your life. So all Want to sleep? And if we think about how our sleep is affected by our emotional state, yes, we wake up at four o'clock in the morning panicked because we haven't done something or we're stressing out about something. We need closeness and help with our emotions in order to sleep well, or it might take you hours to fall asleep. So really acknowledging that our children need that. And we need that too, which is why sessions are really helpful. So,

Shelley Clarke  45:26

yeah, yeah, I love that. And because I always love Marion's like the three things that we need for sleep, to feel tired to feel close to and connected to our caregiver, but also then to feel relaxed in our bodies. So you know, we need to have that closeness with our parent. And the roughhousing and listening to feelings helps us be close. And as they get older, it's probably more talking and just sharing about their day. And, you know, you laying there and having a little joke and connecting, but then they also need to feel relaxed in their bodies around, you know, moving that energy and shifting if they have a cry or laughing and giggling and that helps them to relax, and then often we sleep much better. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much is there? Well, let's talk about your work or where people can find you. Because I know you've got a course coming up on babies and sleep. So you want to talk a bit about that?

46:24

Well, Marion, who we've alluded to, during the call, we've co created the AWARE parenting babies course. And that's everything for babies under one so it includes sleep. But it's also you know, if you've had a difficult birth, how to help heal your baby heal from birth trauma, how to differentiate and we go into real detail about differentiating between hungry and emotional cries, you get to see me listening to my little baby boys. So you can see it in action. If you haven't seen it before, you might not know what it looks like. So it's really helpful. So come and check that out at where babies are where parenting babies.com. But my website is Parenting With Play. And so everything's on there. So you can access the babies course on there, I also have this programme called Annoying to amazing, which is for children. So all of those everyday annoying things that our kids do that drive us crazy, even though we try and pretend that we're fine. How we can apply these principles to transform all of that. Yeah, so we can fall back in love with our children again, because sometimes, you know, our children's behaviour can get in the way of loving feelings towards them. So when we know how to help our children, we restore that connection. So that's lovely, too.

Shelley Clarke  47:35

Yes, I love that. I love that point. Because we do sometimes their their behaviour drives us so crazy that we're like, we can't, we don't remember that can't feel the love. And you know, being reminded what's going on with that behaviour. And shifting it through play and doing different things helps us to kind of remember that we love like, the love. And then we respond

47:59

better to them where they're more patient and more understanding rather than like, oh my god, stop doing that. Yeah, so yes. So those are two things. And I've got the Parenting With Play podcast, which you can even listen to Shelley has done a couple of episodes on now, which has been so awesome, too. Yes,

Shelley Clarke  48:14

amazing. I'll put all those links in the show notes too. So for people listening, you can find it all in the show notes. But I would highly recommend if you've got a little baby. Marion and Helena would just be a comprehensive start to how we can listen to our children. But in this first year, and doing it right from the start is a gift. It's really it really is.

48:41

Yeah, it's amazing. And having the collaboration with Marion and all of her depth of knowledge is just it's, it's a brilliant programme.

Shelley Clarke  48:49

I really, really recommend it. Yeah. So yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me today. It has been a pleasure to talk about sleep and babies and crying and play and all the beautiful things that we both love. So thank you so much for coming on.

49:04

My pleasure. Thank you.

Shelley Clarke  49:06

Thank you for listening. This episode was brought to you by 21 days of play my self-paced course to help bring more play into your every day. Thank you so much for listening. I would love to know your thoughts and feelings and to continue the conversation. You can connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at _shelleyclarke_  If you'd like to keep in the loop for all my resources and offerings as they happen you can join my mailing list at www.shelleyclarke.com. Thank you for all you are doing. Your parenting is important and powerful. Have a lovely day. Bye for now.