Aware Parenting and teenagers with Joss Goulden

In this episode Shelley chats with Aware Parenting instructor of 16 years, Joss Goulden. 
With a background in psychology and counselling, and a love of supporting families with aware parenting and natural learning, this Mother of two teenage children has a wealth of knowledge for the Aware Parenting community. If you've ever wondered what the experience of children and parents who have practiced the Aware Parenting paradigm through the seasons of time feels like, then listen as Joss shares that with us. 
 
In this episode you'll learn about:
- how refusing to do sleep training and control crying led Joss to find Aware Parenting
- the powerful ways to connect with your teenager without having to result to punishment and rewards
- the role privacy and autonomy plays for our teenagers and why it is so vital
- the importance of looking for the underlying needs when behaviour is challenging and meeting their needs in a way that allows respect for them, and feels good for all
- why a conflict free household is never the goal and how to handle conflict in a way that leaves everybody feeling loved
 
If you are wanting to cultivate an emotionally safe environment for your teenager to grow into an adult whilst staying connected to you,  then this is the podcast episode for you!

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Continue the conversation with Shelley here:
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Find Joss Goulden here:
https://awareparenting.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063759596832
https://www.instagram.com/awareparentingwithjoss/

This podcast is produced by Nikki O'Brien from Quintessential Being

Transcript

Shelley Clarke  00:00

I wish to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I live on. I pay my respects to the Kaurna people elders past and present, and honour their ongoing traditions. Welcome to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host, Shelley Clarke. Here I talk about all things mind and body and how this relates to ourselves and our parenting. I envision a world where children are seen and heard, and parents feel supported and less alone. Join me here in the power of story, expert knowledge and lived experiences. Let's dive in. Today's episode is brought to you by kids in Adelaide for all the best events, activities, places to visit and things to do with your kids in Adelaide and around South Australia. Visit www.kidsinadelaide.com.au. Hi, and welcome back to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host Shelley Clarke and today I have the pleasure of chatting with Joss Goulden, Joss is an aware parenting instructor and has been practising aware parenting for 16 years. She's a mother of two children ages 18 and 16. And love supporting families with aware parenting and natural learning. With a background in psychology and counselling and a long list of other courses behind her she has a wealth of knowledge for the AWARE parenting community. Welcome, Joss. Thanks so much for coming on today.

01:31

Oh, thanks so much for having me. Shelley I love our conversations. And I'm really looking forward to this one too.

Shelley Clarke  01:36

Well, I'm really looking forward to having you on as well. Because I think we're so lucky here in Australia, we've got several people that have been doing a where parenting for many years, and, you know, have teenage children, which was what we're going to talk about mainly today, but have teenager or young adult children. So you and Marian and Lael and Helena, but her kids aren't quite as old. But, you know, we're really lucky to have such experience that we can draw from. And I know I really value hearing your experience and hearing your stories and things. So that's, you know, another reason I wanted to have you on so that we can, you know, see what it's like when we parent this way, and how our children feel when they're teenagers and, and young adults. So thank you for coming on.

02:32

It's such a pleasure. And I do remember those early days when your kids are little and you have your moments of doubt or moments of worry where you think Well, how's this gonna work? How is this? How's it going to end up how they're gonna turn out? And so yeah, it is really helpful to have people who've been through it, who can say with the benefit of hindsight, yeah, it's all awesome. Trust. It's all good. Everything's gonna be okay. Yes. And I

Shelley Clarke  02:55

like, I think that's so valuable. Like I really appreciate as another instructor, I really, really, really value that. Because, you know, when we first started this, I was like, hang on, is this is this actually okay, listening to our kids cry like this and listening to feelings? Will this turn out? You know, how will this turn out? And just hearing from, you know, people like yourself, it just makes it go, okay. All right, let's just, Yep, let's keep going. So shall we start with a little bit more about your story, your journey through aware parenting, how you came to be doing what you do now, with parents, but also a little bit about your aware parenting story? Sure, well,

03:43

I was very passionate, classical attachment parent, when my first child was born, I'd read the continuum concept when I was at uni, I really loved it. And then I read it again, like 15 years later when I was pregnant. And so some of the aspects of aware parenting were already in place, like the closeness, the co sleeping, the long term breastfeeding, all that kind of thing. But my beautiful boy who never cried because I always did whatever I could to stop him crying, thinking that I was taking away his pain by doing so never got to express any feelings. And then he became too and started to express lots of things. And I was like, Oh, my God was my beautiful baby. Yeah. And at the same time, I had a second child, and I'd had no sleep for two years, and she didn't sleep much either. And so I just was desperate really to find something. And all the way through people had said to me, everybody who I knew basically it said to me, Well, you're pushing eventually, you've got to do sleep training, control, crying, that's the only way you're gonna get any sleep and I was not willing to do that. And everywhere I turned with the same message, whether that was from friends or whether that was from organisations to support parents, it was all that same message and I was just like, no way. There's no way I'm going to do do that to my child. I've been holding them close and loving them so much. Why weeping to cry? Yeah. So part of me just thought, Oh God, I just this is just reality. I'm never going to sleep again. And part of me thought now that there must be something missing here. And I do remember one incident where my son, we'd gone to the UK when he was really little, and he'd had this huge flight. And it was like the first time he was probably a few months old that he had, he was completely inconsolable. And until then I'd always managed to do something to distract him out of his feelings. And he's just totally inconsolable. And I was really stressed. And there was part of me that thought, maybe he just needs to cry. Maybe I could just stay with him. And then I just thought, not mean that I'm causing pain for him. And I didn't do it anyway. So then, yeah, my second child was born and I discovered Marion's work through an article in a magazine and I just straight away I was like, Oh, of course. Yeah. Like, of course, this makes sense. Yes. And it really resonated with me. And I thought, well, yeah, you know, as an adult, I've had plenty of counselling and therapy myself. And I knew what it felt like to be heard to be met with loving kindness and compassion and empathy. And I was like, Well, yeah, of course, our kids want that too. And, of course, us humans have this perfect design and this amazing, powerful, innate healing system that's set up, right? Why would we not, of course. And so I started to listen to feelings. And initially with my daughter, it was just at the end of the day, because she was second child, she had so much more chaos and noise and activity in her life that my first child had had. And so at the end of the day, every day, she had lots of feelings to share about it. And even though, like she'd had this beautiful home birth in water, she still had feelings about that as well. And so I just listened to her feelings every night. And it was just so clear so quickly, that after crying in that way, her whole body would be so relaxed, and you know, a little fists with open and her, her body would just be this sort of soft, she'd make lots of eye contact, fall asleep and sleep beautifully. So with my son at that time, it as I said, he was having lots of tantrums. And I went from being like, really confused as to why he would have any feelings at all to share. Because like, I'd always loved him and cuddled and CO slept and breastfed, why would he possibly have any feelings to share to thinking, Oh, wow, actually, you know, he would, of course, he'd have lots of things to share. And the more I listened to my daughter, the more I realised that he'd had two years worth of this year's had been holding inside for tea. So that really supported me to just listen. And so you'd have these big meltdowns and these huge tantrums. And it was so beautiful, again, to see that as this really powerful expression of feelings, feelings about his childhood, at feelings about the moment and also feelings about I think, not having had the opportunity to express feelings and so much of that frustration around. You know, I want to talk to your mom, I want to tell you how stressed I am or how upset I am or how uncomfortable and unhappy if at the moment and you're not listening?

Shelley Clarke  08:03

Yeah. Well, you think about, you know, when we're trying to talk and our partners might suggest something, or they try and fix it, or they try and go, Oh, well, have you thought about this? And you just we get frustrated? Because we're like, No, you're not listening, I just want to share this with you. I don't want to solution and I don't want to be distracted. You think about how frustrated we get they, too, they would be exactly the same.

08:27

Yeah, definitely. And it was interesting as well, because he'd had his tears suppressed by me unknowingly, with loving intentions. He didn't always find it easy to express feelings through crying. And he developed lots of control pens to hold those feelings inside, which, you know, initially I had lots of judgement about. But it did mean that he, for him, it was really easy to express feelings through laughter and through play. Yeah. So we did a lot of that. And I think that's also really helpful around that frustration of not having been heard before. So much of those like power reversal games and all that. I mean, attachment plays just so magic. And I think it really suited to him. And he has this amazing sense of humour. And even now, he laughs a lot when, as a way to express feelings. And so yeah, we did a lot of that attachment play early on. And then I got to this stage where I started thinking, well hang on a minute, what about me? Like, maybe I need to work where reparent myself? Possibly, yep. And I remember Marian sort of gently nudging us in that direction and me being quite reluctant to go there, even though I'd had lots of therapy and lots of counselling in my life and studied psychology and had all this knowledge about it. So that was a more gradual process. And the more I saw my children having that amazing benefit of being heard and getting to express how they felt, the more I realised that wow, I actually have 40 years worth of feelings now inside me. Well, yes, slightly less but basically, and although I had had some healing I realised how many times my inner baby in a toddler in a child in a teen in an adult 30 year old, had not had the opportunity to express those feelings. So it became increasingly obvious that that was a huge part of the work as well. And so yeah, just fast forward to now. And it's, you know, it's still a huge part of our lives. And I just I'm so grateful every literally every day of my life. I'm so grateful to were parenting and in the times when things have been really challenging, and we'll talk about the teenage years, which are full of challenge and difficult situations as well to navigate. Every time I come back to those basics of aware parenting around connection, listening to feelings, prioritising relationship, not having punishments and rewards, all of those things, play for connection, things just magically go back to being beautiful again, so amazing. Oh, powerful in the teenage years. I found it lifesaving. Love it. Love it.

Shelley Clarke  11:00

Yeah. Well, shall we, because I also want to have a talk to you a little bit about your passion for natural learning. But seeing as we're talking about the teens, and you've just started to kind of mention, the teenage years, shall we dive straight into that and talk a little bit more about the challenges and the things that you have learned and any stories that you might have to share? Because I think, again, it's just so helpful for us, because I know a lot of my listeners probably have early, you know, kids in their early years, and some might have tweens and some might have teens already, that are already just coming across a web parenting now. So it's just helpful to hear these stories. So shall we talk about some of the challenging times and what you've learnt with a wet parenting? Yeah, well,

11:53

the teens is an interesting time in our children's life. And I think your teens are quite misunderstood, often, but it is a time of considerable change and considerable pressure. And if you think about all of the challenges of going through puberty, and all of those sort of physiological things that are going on in their body, I mean, that's huge. That's a huge thing to start navigating. And as well as that, you know, our teens are facing lots of pressure at school, never really hasn't been so pressured all the times, and all that sort of thing. And, you know, peer to peer issues, issues with teachers, navigating that whole individuation which like on the one hand, it's so exciting to be becoming who they are and getting more freedom and more adults like opportunities. And on the other hand, it's really terrifying for them, because they're like, Well, who am I? What's the purpose? What am I going to become? How am I going to fit in and don't really relish all of those responsibilities of adulthood? Yes, it's a really complex time. And then you throw social media into the picture. And it's amazing how much pressure they're under, and they're, like, bombarded 24 hours a day by these images of people looking beautiful, having incredibly fabulous lives, which, of course, is not the reality. But you know, so there's a tendency to have comparisons. And, you know, back in my day, if there'd been a party going on, that I hadn't been invited to, I probably wouldn't ever know about it. But now you see on your screen that everybody's there. And so I mean, it's just there's so many aspects to this, plus the incredibly addictive nature of this technology, which is being controlled by really powerful algorithms that's well beyond our capacity to resist. Yes, there's lots and lots of things that are really challenging for our teenagers to be navigating. And they often feel like misunderstood. They feel judged, they feel criticised. There's such a tendency to be nagging them to be not giving, meeting their needs in so many ways. So it's a it's a tricky time. And it's a really tricky time for us as parents of teenagers because, like most of us didn't get to express our feelings. As teenagers, most of us didn't get to share what was in our heart. Most of us didn't get to have our needs met for connection and privacy and autonomy and all those other things. And so, most of us are carrying around this heavy, heavy burden of all of our pain from our teens. And I mean, I really struggled as a teenager, my teen years were really difficult, and I had lots of really harsh experiences. And most of those I've never had a chance to share or revisit or give any compassion to and so our teenagers behaviour just as our children does, brings us face to face again with these difficult memories, these painful parts, these aspects of our inner teen that is also coming up for some attention. And so it's a perfect storm really, potentially, things to be pretty tricky. And you know, our life is stress. School as well as parents, lots of us are navigating different issues around, you know, not having any time not having adequate support, or all of those other things. So it is a really difficult time. And so it's inevitable that there will be times when things are really tough. And when our teenagers are going through tough stuff, or when we're going through tough stuff, or when both of us. So I often just come back to this reminder about those basic principles of aware parenting and thinking again, that those aspects hold true in the teenage years. They just tweaked a little bit, yes, we are focusing on you know, the first aspects for web parenting is about close connection, prompt responsiveness to our children. And that is still something that we really need to focus on in the teenage years. And obviously, what that looks like is a bit different, we're probably not, you know, tenderly holding teenagers.

15:55

But they need lots of that still, they need lots of physical touch, because they're not getting it so much. They need us to still be cuddling to still be available to still be responding to them and to still be prioritising connection, and relationships. So that's hugely important. And that really, really requires us to keep reminding ourselves of how important it is to connect. And often there's, there is eye rolling, and there is door slamming, and there is leave me alone. And so we just keep having to draw on this huge, endless well of love that we have for our children and to keep reaching out, keep reaching out, sometimes that's met with relief, and sometimes that's met with okay, you can go away now leave me alone, but we have to keep trying. And aspect is this non punitive discipline thing, which is so important. And if we've started off down that track with our children, when they're younger than these years can be much more smooth sailing. Although I do still have a tendency, even after all these years sometimes to be wanting to go into that power over at times when I'm feeling disempowered by their behaviour and think, right? Well, in that case, I'm taking away your phone or whatever. And so we have to keep reminding ourselves that we don't want to parent our children in these ways. We want to be looking for underlying needs when their behaviour is challenging. And we want to be meeting their needs in a way that allows respect for them, and feels good. And all of those punitive techniques don't work with teens anyway. I mean, how are you going to put a teenager in the naughty corner or whatever

17:27

work so but keep that requires a lot of work on it for us to keep coming back to those things and to have like peaceful conflict resolution in our family. And I love that Elisa talks about the fact that, you know, it's inevitable that families will have times of conflict. And you know, great parenting is not about having a conflict free home, it's about handling the inevitable times when conflict does come up in a way that leaves everybody feeling loved. So I love to remember that as well as part of that process. And so things like lots of respectful conversations. Again, if you've got that connection, it's easy as a base to then, you know, listen to your children with respect, allow everybody's opinions to be equally important and to find ways out of challenges in a way that meets everybody's needs. And yet the third aspect about aware parenting is listening to feelings and connecting playfully. And that is so important for our teenagers. So we really want to keep providing our teens with a space where it's safe for them to show up to be who they are for us to welcome all of their feelings, even when they are messy or difficult or uncomfortable for us to keep reaching out and letting them know that they can always bring stuff to us whatever's going on in their lives, to listen in a way like even more importantly, where we shut our mouth. Just listen. Because there is that tendency to go into that advising or fixing or, you know, wanting to give our teenagers the benefit of our considerable wisdom, which is not always gratefully received by them. Yeah. So yeah, listening with love listening with respect to listening with that compassion and not much else, letting them know. And sometimes that's you know, being with them in person having conversations, sometimes that's allowing them the space to cry on their own and just, you know, checking in and letting them know that we're there. You know, that might look different depending on what's going on in the situation. But it's still offering that and sometimes that's sending a text message just to say, I acknowledge things are really hard for you right now, sweetheart, and I'm always here if you want to talk or you know, whatever that looks like, it's still essentially the same thing that we're doing and play. It's still so important for our teams to be still connecting with play and we probably, you know, we don't do so much of you know, symbolic play or regression play, but we do still do some of that and lots of power reversals still and there's some beautiful opportunities to do powerful power reversal games with our teenagers who genuinely are more power Have fallen K for for the last now many things that we do together in play, lots of laughter. And yeah, that comes down to that connection again. So it's sort of the same, it's just different. But you know, whenever I've had challenges, and in fact, earlier this year, I really had the most challenging time in my parenting, because my son moved out to go and start university. And that was a big transition for us. And I was absolutely delighted for him to be having adventures and going off and exploring what he wants to do. But I also really, really missed him. And yeah, it was sort of grieving in a way. And then there was this really tumultuous situation with my daughter. And so there was really, really big stuff going on. And I kind of lost my way for about a week with a where parenting and, you know, there was arguments, and it was all I really wasn't the parent, I want it to be at all, I was really, really triggered by everything that was going on in my life. And I just lost my way, basically. And I was quite shocked. After 16 years of doing this. Yeah, I would be, you know, floundering around really Yeah. And then when I got support for myself, which is also this basic, essential part of a web parenting, so I went, I reached out for extra support for myself, and lots of listening for me. And then I came back to this the basics, these basics again of Yeah, connecting as much as I can prioritising relationship, making sure I was clear about meeting needs and not having punishments, listening to feelings, connecting through play. And yeah, it just, it was magic, it really was a magic transformation. And it was another reminder of that beautiful thing about our parenting when we do lose our way when we do respond to our children harshly. And often when our kids are young, it's just like a momentary lapse. And sometimes when they're older, when the challenges feel a bit bigger, or if we're going through particularly stressful things in our life, it might be a longer period of time where we Losing Our Way, but the power of that rewind, and that reconnection, that power of getting back grounded with what we love about this approach. And then offering that beautiful, all of those beautiful strategies or where parenting to ourselves and to our children is just magic. And it takes your relationship to an even deeper level, because there is this renewed commitment to love. And there is this the new deepen understanding of each other where you say, I'm sorry that I responded to you like that I was, I was feeling this. And you're always worthy and deserving of love. And I'm sorry that I'm not always able to do that. But I will keep trying to do them. And this is what I was feeling. Not in a way like I'll meet my needs, I'm desperate, because that was being taken care of elsewhere with my listening partnership and my other sources of support, but just in a way of Oh, wow, I understand you better. And all of that compassionate, like connection, and me being compassionate to myself and me being compassionate to my children, my children being compassionate to me, just it's just so beautiful. So yeah, I can't imagine how my life would well, I can't imagine how my life actually would be if I didn't have a word parenting and it would be pretty ugly right now. Yeah.

Shelley Clarke  23:12

Well, you know, thank you for sharing all of that. Because it's I think it's helpful to know and hear that, even after doing it for 16 years, we have moments and weeks or days or whatever it might be where we we do we resort back, because we have our own feelings coming up. And so I think it is helpful to hear what happens when we don't parent like this all the time, because it's not possible. And I still have days and weeks and moments where, like, it's not really how I really want this to be, and what do you come back to, and it's coming back to these fundamental things of getting more support for us having a listening partner working through what is coming up for us, then once that's cleared, we can go okay, connect with our child play. Listen, you know, and we can that repair is so powerful. So really, thank you for sharing that. I'd love to know, well, a few things from all of the stuff you've just said. You mentioned around like, door slamming and go away. And you know, the big feelings that come and I know parents will often say, Oh, I'm not quite sure what to do there. Do I go do I say you know what, like, you know, and you said, we just sort of keep coming back and keep offering and keep trying to reach them. I'd love to know what that actually looks like in the teen years. And how do you do that dance? Like how do you know? You know what they want?

24:42

Yeah, well, it's a bit of trial and error. And often as with every other aspect of our parents, it comes back down to how we're feeling. And you know, as I said at the beginning, I've got lots of feelings from my teenage years that come up so often when there's conflict or difficulty. It does take me back to those younger parts. And so I think the most important thing with teenagers is tending to ourselves first because it's not like you've got a baby in your arms whose safety depends on you actually just being there in that moment. Now we can take time. And if we're having, you know, if things are going into that, that, you know, challenge, it's okay for our teens to go off to their room for a while and take themselves away with this. They're safe, they're taken care of. So it's actually a real gift for us to Okay, in this moment, what is going on for me? What am I feeling? What am I needing what, and just take yourself away and give yourself a bit of love? And, you know, often for me that just looks like stepping outside into the sunshine, barefoot on the ground, handle my heart and just breathing a little bit and just giving myself some love? What is it here? What is it reminded me of and you know, doing some processing, and whether that's in the moment, or whether that's later, we do now have time with our teens to be able to be doing that work first, which then makes it so much easier to go into the connection and to meet our children's needs. So in fact, if I don't do that, first, that the reconnection dance never goes as smoothly. So that's a big difference. Because yeah, when our kids are little, we can't, we can't pause them freeze outside to tend to myself,

Shelley Clarke  26:12

they're about to hit each other or do something like hang on, I just need to sort myself out first.

26:18

Yeah, so yeah, that's the first thing. And then the second part of it is very much the same as when they're little. And that is, you know, we rewind, are you? Are you willing to rewind with me? Are you able to you ready for us to have a conversation about what just happened? And then again, it's about acknowledging what happens and acknowledging their feelings in it. Like, imagine that felt a bit crap when I shouted at you, or whatever it is that happens, you know, and how are you feeling and explaining again, and it's about relinquishing our children from the responsibility of our emotional reactions. So we explain what happens, but it's clear that it's not their fault. It's just stuff for us. Yeah. And then yeah, when that's, we have some really beautiful conversations at the end of that, how were you really feeling and loved and then you really get into the juicy stuff of listening to their feelings, what was going on for them, what they're struggling with, and that beautiful connection. And so sometimes it is that process where you, you take yourself away, and then you approach them. And when they're ready, you have this beautiful in person reconnection. And sometimes, I mean, the other day, I went in to talk to my daughter, she was having a bit of a struggle about something, I decided it was a really great time to give her some advice. She didn't really want it. So it all went a bit pear shaped. And she said, you know, Mom got you just gotta go, now you just gonna leave me I want to be on my own go away. So I went away, and I got some listening. And I got to express what I was feeling. And I got to express to my husband how ridiculous it was that she didn't want wisdom and how I was able to sort it out for her so well, if only she listened. And then I sent her a text message. And I, she, we were in the house together. And I just sent her text message saying, Well, that went pear shaped quick, sorry about that. When you're ready, I'm here. And five minutes later, she came out and it was beautiful. And we had this, we went and sat down in the sunshine by the dam. And we made her a cup of tea, and we just had this beautiful chat, and it was fine. So it's just, it's kind of the same, but it just looks a bit different. But it is a dance. And sometimes I get it really wrong. And sometimes, like I might move in with play, and really misjudge the situation. And I think it's hilarious. No, that's actually not funny at all. And sometimes it's gorgeous. And yes, that starts this playful connection. That's really nice. So it's it's a dance, and it's trial and error. And but the the essential thing is that we are showing our children that we realise that we've made a mistake, and that we've got it wrong and that they do need us and they need us to, to come back to what they need in terms of offering them and that we accept that we made a mistake and that we are sorry that we made a mistake and that our relationship with them is our priority. And so even if we do it in a really clumsy way, it doesn't matter because what they're receiving is unconditional love. I mean,

Shelley Clarke  29:08

yes. I so love that. Because a lot of parents I work with might say something like, they just don't listen to me. And, you know, I think what you just pointed out around, noticing when we when we don't get it, but how they want it to be and we don't meet their needs. And it's not about us going well. I know what is best for them. And I my advice is so good right now. It's just what she needs. You know, it's like recognising actually, this is not what she's needing. She doesn't want my advice right now. And you owning that and saying, Oh, that went pear shaped. Sorry. It wasn't what you know, wasn't what I was intending. I'm here if you need. It's so powerful when the adult takes responsibility for their feelings for their actions and the child learns that they're not responsible for the adult, and that their relationship is, is the main thing and that they are unconditionally loved. I think that's such a powerful message for our children to receive, but also other parents to hear.

30:15

Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because it's about our language as well. So often when we're saying my children won't listen, what we actually mean is my children won't obey me, yes.

30:25

My children won't listen to my advice. It's really good.

30:29

So, you know, that's what you take to a listening partner. And that's what I take to mine. And I'm like, if only she listened to me, I would tell her that she should do this, and she should do that. And then at the end of that process, I'm like, Ah, Nah, she's just got to find her way with this. And then I don't feel triggered and irritated anymore. When she doesn't want my advice. I'm like, totally trusting that. She's on her journey. And she's, she's doing things her way or my son to do he's on his own unique journey, and he's making decisions and choosing for himself. And that is beautiful. And sometimes, we have to accept as well, that sometimes our children need to learn the lessons the hard way. And we've just got to be there to trust them and to, to support them. And, and to be there when things are tough. But allow them to find their own way and to trust that they're more than capable of doing so.

Shelley Clarke  31:19

love that so much, so much trust. Because, you know, we start to try and trust, you know, start trusting our children with this in the early years. But I would imagine, as they're starting to find their way in the world, there's even more trust that is required to, yeah, trust their process and their life and what they're needing.

31:40

Yeah, although that's can be really difficult as well, in the teenage years, because they're going off to parties, or they're going off on a sleepover, where they're staying away for a few days, or, you know, you know, that there's lots of things going on in mainstream culture that are that they're being exposed to that are difficult to navigate. And we know that they're taking risks, and that's a normal part of teenage years. So it can be really hard to trust. And again, that's that you take that to your listening partner, don't you, I'm really struggling with the fact that this is what they're doing or whatever. And, you know, the more that we've responded to them throughout their childhood by meeting their needs, and, you know, teaching them to trust themselves and to trust their bodies and to listen to their feelings and to, to be much more connected to the inner voice and their authentic self. So it is easier to trust them. And the fact that they know that it's a safe place means that, you know, when they do make mistakes and make silly choices, which they're always inevitably going to do sometimes that we know that they will call us that they will know that we will be there anytime day or night, and that they won't be in trouble and that they don't have to hide or sneak or lie about what they're getting up to. So that that makes it easier to trust as well. Because we know that in the times when things are, you know, challenging and difficult or when they make bad choices or when they take risks that we wish they didn't take that they will always let us know and be honest with us. So it comes back to that relationship again.

Shelley Clarke  33:09

Yeah, absolutely. What advice would you give to a parent that sort of only just starting this way of being with their children now so they have teens or early? You know, tweens teens age, what, how do we how do they change? How do we suddenly kind of go oh, okay, there's a new way of being, I really want a deeper connection with my children. I really want to trust them. But they've only just found this philosophy. What What would you say? What would be the focus?

33:43

I think tooth? Well, there's lots to say. Yeah. Really? It's never too late ever. Yeah. So yes, that's beautiful. If you if you found this way later, then that's awesome and amazing. And it's going to transform your life and your team's life. So great. celebrate that. I would say you're getting support for yourself is really, really important, particularly haven't parented this way. Because as you discover this, these this approach, there might be lots of guilts coming up, there might be lots of tendency to beat ourselves up about not having done it this way about having punished them in the past or, you know, having had rupture in your relationship with your child. So I think getting support for yourself is absolutely crucial. You can't do it otherwise. So that's where I'd start. And I think in terms of your teams, I would just focus on prioritising your connection and your relationships. So anytime your team bring something to you or share something with you, listen with interest and love. And, you know, if they approach you and want to be playful, then drop what you're doing and prioritise that connection. Don't like force it but just when it's offered. Grab it with both hands. Yeah. And yeah, be be playful with your child whenever you can. And I mean, even And the other day, my daughter and my husband were just moving into a bit of nastiness. And I was saying, I think I think she just really wants a whole lot of kisses. Come on, I'm pretty sure what she wants right now is for us to go and give her lots of kisses. And we went over, we gave her lots of kisses, and she was eye rolling. She knew what we were doing. But she also really partly loved it. And then we kind of started playing, she's mine, she's mine. Like, it was just so sweet. And so nice. So just lots of playful connection, whenever you have capacity. And again, the more you're getting your feelings heard, the more capacity you have to be playful, and you know, if this is a new thing to you play can be quite challenging, because often we've lost that connection with our playful selves. So that just, you know, even if it's joining them, showing interest in them and joining them in their world. So you know, if they're really interested, whatever they're really passionate about, and love, show interest in coming to you and talking to you about something, you know, even if it's like, you know, my son went through a stage of being really into rap music, and I hate rap. But I was just like, oh, wow, that's really interesting to me about him, the artist, and, you know, so finding ways to connect with them about the things that they love and that they're passionate about. And showing interest in them is just then you're halfway there because you feel like you want to spend time with or interested in them that you do love them. And so, yeah, I'd say those would probably be the place to start. The other thing I just want to mention is around the trust thing as well is about respecting our children's need for privacy is really important in the teenage years. Because you know, around that puberty time, they start to need more privacy around their bodies and about their business. So they'll go snooping in their rooms, don't go snooping in their phones, don't go reading their diary, don't you know surreptitiously be checking when you know what's what the message has been between them in it. Sometimes it's really tempting to do that, because you really want to know what's going on. But our children cannot feel that we trust them to be able to navigate life with our support and help if we're also checking up on them and sneaking around. And often, like, you know, for example, if our children are writing a diary, they might write in their diary, oh my god, I'm so depressed, life's awful, I can't bear it, just because they've had a falling out with their friends. And if we go reading that, that can be really like that can bring lots of worries for us. And actually, all they're doing is offloading some feelings. And of course, I'd just say on the other side of that, but if your teens behaviour is leading you to have concerns about their safety and their welfare, which is an issue that many people are facing, then take that seriously, of course, that's really important. And so, you know, if your children are, you know, self harming, or if they are, you know, taking drugs very frequently, or, you know, if they're not eating, or if they're having significant problems with sleep, or any of those sorts of things can be concerns, big, big concerns. And so of course, we would be recommending as our parenting instructors to be reaching out for professional support in those moments, and still practising this at home. Because whatever our children are going through, the more we can offer them these types of connections and these types of support, the better. But I do recognise obviously, that there are times when Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Shelley Clarke  38:20

absolutely. I think that's really, really important. All of the things that you just mentioned, I'd love to talk about play a little bit more about, and you've mentioned a couple of things. And I'm really amazed that, like we play the game, you know, I want you more I want you more I love you more, come with me, can we, you know, like we fight over our children quite a bit. And it's such a powerful game for anyone listening, if you want to play a game where you fight over your kids, and I want her and I want her. It's great for any age, like our four year old loves it, and our 10 year old loves it. But it's so amazing to hear that a 16 year old still, or what are some other games because I'm sure would look different. But also at the same time, I always say to parents, don't be surprised that your child still wants some of these games that you played when you were little because they do want it we just forget. And as they get older, I think we kind of go they're not really don't want to play that anymore. But actually, I think they kind of do.

39:20

Yeah, and I as I said, my daughter was probably thinking, oh God, here we go again. But you know, who could fail to enjoy being loved up so much by your parents? Yeah, whatever I do. Yeah. So there's a few of the attachment play aspects that I really love with teenagers. I think the first is special time, which I still do. And so yeah, with my daughter, we tend to have about a day a week where we spend special time together because she's we're homeschooling so we have lots of time. So that's really nice. And she gets to choose what we do and it's not every week but it's very frequently and we also like go away for weekends together and that kind of thing and have that special time that extended special time. She's just lovely. Yeah, we don't have a timer anymore. Yeah. But yeah, we do have that quality time where we're following their lead where we're giving them our undivided attention. And we are just playing, whatever that play looks like. So one of the things, for example, that my daughter, my daughter loves dancing, and she's really good at dancing. And she recently made up her silly dance for a song from a movie that we had watched. And so every now and then she will go and put on the music for that. And that's an invitation for me to get up and to do the city dance with her. And we do it a couple of times. Ridiculous, but it's kind of really fun as well. So yeah, just following those invitations to play and dance can be a really good one. There's the whole I don't know if you're familiar with tick tock, tick tock dance thing going on. And so quite often, my daughter and I will do that. And of course, she's much better at it than I am. And so she's teaching me the dancers. So there's that whole power reversal element that's really lovely. Or should we might do that dance game, I think you've posted a dance game with your child, and we do the same thing. So we will dance, I'll do a dance move, and she'll copy that. And then she'll do a dance move, and I'll copy that sort of thing is really nice. We were playing, I still do a bit of like power reversal. I mean, it's interesting, because my kids are both bigger than me now. And so you know, sometimes we play sort of Chase kind of Chasey yo, sort of having a bit of a laugh in the house with a dog or whatever. And, of course, I can't get away from them. And so you know, there's lots of laughter around that, because like, I always kept and I don't have to pretend anymore. To catch you. My son might pick me up and like, you know, chuck me on the sofa or something like that. Yeah. So there's that sort of element.

Shelley Clarke  41:43

can't even imagine my son picking me up picking, throwing

41:49

my son's so yeah, he's man, he's so tiny. So like, everybody, my family is way bigger than me. So yeah, it's kind of easy. But the other day, we were playing a board game. And it was we're playing this game articulate where you have to describe something and get it. And my kids decided my son had come home from uni for a few days, and the kids decided they wanted to be a team against me and Kemal my husband. And so I very subtly let them win. And you know, so there's still a little bit of that going on. It was really subtle. But they weren't. And then they were really happy about winning. And they were like, losers, you know, joking, kind of grey action. And that was that was so there's still a bit of that going on. And yeah, just lots of laughter. So meeting them with what they're doing. So there's lots of lots of hilarious memes, memes. They find online that that they share. And again, there's a power reversal element there, because quite often they'll show me something and I'll be like, I don't get it. They're like, Oh, come on. It's really funny. Or, yeah, if they find funny things on Tiktok, they will bring them to me to show me and sometimes we will just laugh, like so much like, just that crying with laughter laughter about what they found. And it's just yeah, bringing silliness. Like, you know, like nonsense play when they were little, we still still bring that in and be silly and ridiculous. And so it's just yeah, it's, it's a big part of it, I think. And it's a really important part of it. And, you know, our teens don't want to play trains with us, or dolls anymore, or any of that stuff. But they do still want that playful, fun, light hearted connection and that laughter and that togetherness. So it just looks a bit different.

Shelley Clarke  43:40

Yeah. Amazing. And what about the crying and the tears? Is there as much of that is there? Like, obviously, it will look different? Because they're able to articulate themselves more, is that more talking? Like, I would love to know a bit more about how that looks to?

43:59

Yeah, it's sort of everything. It's all of it really. And it depends on how they're feeling and what's going on. And yeah, I think and also on their personalities. Like I think, as I said, at the beginning, my son's always had more of a tendency to release through laughter and play, and that's still the case for him. Yep. So he's always like cracking jokes and being silly and having a laugh, and that's his way. So that's a lot for him. And also, it's more verbal with him. So you know, if he's got stuff going on, he'll talk. Yeah, he'll reach out to talk. We might go for a walk and you might just, you know, I'll just listen. And with my daughter, she, it's, it's again, it's all of those things. She does cry more still. And she's really like, she's so amazing. She's so connected to her capacity to release her feelings through tears. It never ceases to completely blow me away. And because she was parented in this way, from a very young age, she's really got that deep connection to her tears. Yeah, and so Yes, she will cry way more than anybody else in the family. And yeah, I find that really inspiring actually to see her ability to go into that. And sometimes she doesn't want to, and sometimes she, you know, she will go and get into her control patterns to suppress those feelings. And that's part of it as well. And she also gets a lot out through play and laughter too. So it's it, but it is more verbal, as their cognitive capacity allows them. And because they've been raised this way, as well, their emotional intelligence, and their emotional vocabulary is so much richer than mine was like, you know, when I started this whole process, I basically had sad, angry, frustrated, confused, that was about the extent of my understanding of emotion. And because my kids have been raised this way, and because we've had lots of conversations about feelings, and so on, they have a much richer way of describing how they're feeling. So they do have the words often to share, and sometimes they don't. But yeah, I often find it difficult to put into words how I'm feeling. And I'm often really amazed at my children's ability to do that, because it can be really hard to find the way, you know, often we just blacked out, and we're horrible and annoying. And we find our partner and we're horrible. You know, I think I'm always amazed how much better my children are at saying, Oh, I'm feeling this. And of course, there are times when they are going into this really challenging as well. And then we're thinking oh, yeah, red flags failure. But yeah, it is a it's a it's a very, it varies really?

Shelley Clarke  46:37

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I'd love to know, because I know your children have said a few things about being raised in this way. Do you have any off the top of your head around how it's felt for them being raised in this way? Because often as parents, we, like I said, right back at the start, we can kind of go Oh, but are they going to I know. A lot of parents say to me, but if we just listen to they're crying all the time, are they just going to be too emotional, and then they're just going to break down and cry, you know, in the workplace or at school and in these places that you know that they can't, you know, it's not appropriate or whatever it might be? And I'm I've said to them? Well, no, the more that I that we listen at home, the actually the more capable they are of, of dealing with whatever situations are outside of the home. But I'd love to know what it's like, actually, from their experience, if you've gotten around that,

47:36

well, I did have a conversation with them, where I kind of interviewed them. It's what it was like to have been raised with where parenting and it was also looking into natural learning and having been homeschooled as well. So I have got an article on my website, if anybody wants to write about, I can't remember what it's called. But it's something about you know, being raised with older parenting.

47:53

I'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah.

47:57

And my daughter also does this series of posts on my social media called raised with a web parenting, where she has just made this design and then you know, every week or so she will, I'll say to her, Do you want to do another one? And she was like, no. Okay. Do you want to do another one today? No, not really. Okay, what about today? Yeah, I'd really like to do one today. Great. Let's do one today. And so in those posts, she shares a bit about what the experience has been like. And I am planning to do a podcast interview with him on my podcast. And it's time we sat down to try it. It's just degenerated into laughing craziness. And I'm like, Okay, let's make a time where we're actually in the space to do that. But I think for them, what they say is that they felt safe and loved that they felt prioritised so that they know that they can always bring anything to me and I will always, well, I won't always respond in the way they need, but I will always eventually respond in the way that they need. And that, you know, play and special time and things. I mean, my daughter was talking about how all of the play in the special time that we've had is some of her most beautiful memories from her childhood. And she was just saying the other day. Do you remember that time when, you know, we were all living in the shed when we were building a house, we lived in a shed for a long time. And we were living in a shed and we were all getting really grumpy. And it was after dinner and it was summer and the sun was out and we all went outside and you guys pretended that you didn't want to play with us. And then you started chasing us. And so she has, there's lots of those sorts of memories that are really beautiful. And she Yeah, so she just in some of those posts, she talks about that and what that felt like she talked about what it felt like to be able to behave in a way that is really challenging and to know that as often as I can. I'm looking behind the behaviour to see that there's feelings there and then that she's also understood that that is how you know when people are behaving in ways that we find challenging. It's because usually has feelings going on under there. So she now has that understanding about others as well. Yeah. And I think that, that self compassion, I think is probably quite an important thing for them as well that they've learned through the way that I've spoken to them as much as I can. They've learned this sort of internal dialogue that is, has a tendency to be much kinder, and much less judgmental and harsh. And so they would say that that is a significant thing, too. And, you know, it's not like my children are having tantrums in the supermarket or, you know, it just, it's just not. Yeah. And of course, you know, when we think about it, from an aware parenting perspective, you know, the more that they've had their feelings hurt, and they've got to release through crying or laughter or play, the less they're carrying around with them. And the more that we've done our work during this process, the less they're burdened by our stuff. So of course, they are actually, you know, that they're perfectly imperfect humans, but they are also emotionally really resilient and intelligent. And yeah, and wise, in that way.

Shelley Clarke  51:03

Amazing. Thank you. You briefly mentioned natural learning. And I know, this is another big passion of yours, and we probably don't have that could be another whole podcast in itself. But do you want to talk a little bit about that and your journey with homeschooling because I know a lot of people listening probably have their kids at school, some won't, some will homeschool, and I know many that probably would love to homeschool, but just aren't sure, including myself. And we've had many discussions in our home around natural learning. And I've learned so much from you and from Marian around natural learning. So would you like to talk a little bit more about that? Just a brief sort of overview and your experience with that with your kids?

51:46

Yeah, sure. School just wasn't really working for us, my son went to kindy. And he wasn't ready. And so we, I stayed with him two days a week. And I saw a lot of what was going on in the school. And it was a lovely school, and the teachers were doing their best and it was beautiful. But it wasn't really working for him. And there was lots going on, that I didn't like and didn't feel very aware parenting at all. And I also noticed that every day he would come home with lots of feelings. Yeah. And I wasn't always able to listen to those feelings. And then I knew that two days later, he was going back to school and going back into that environment, which was gonna be stressful and traumatic for him again. So we chose to take him out of school, never really thinking that we would do it forever. And thinking initially, that we would probably do school at home. And then we realised that actually, we it's a, it was a parallel journey with your parenting because it was very much lots of that stuff around trusting our children, allowing our children to, you know, be deeply connected to their own needs around learning, lots of listening to feelings, so that feelings weren't getting in the way of them being able to learn new things. Lots of support for ourselves when we were like, Oh, God, no one's learning anything and what you know, what's going on in our family? And is this the right thing? And are we weird? And? Yeah, so they do, really, I mean, I wouldn't be able to do natural learning, if I wasn't also doing a web parenting, I think it really, it really helps to have both of those aspects there. And the thing with natural learning is, again, it's about just trusting our children that they know what to learn that they know how to learn that they have their own unique, individual learning styles that they have their own unique individual forms of intelligence and their own unique passions and interests. And so we are allowing our children to find their own way we are facilitating their learning, we're providing opportunities for them to have all kinds of different amazing, empowering and nourishing experiences with their learning, but we are allowing them to navigate it to lead it to drive it. And so they're my children have learned lots and dive deep into things that they love them that they're really interested in, and then they don't, then they're not interested in that anymore. And they leave it and they've had lots of things that they haven't explored at all, because they weren't interested in exploring that. And so, you know, they know that, for example, compared to their peers at school, there's lots of things that they don't know, they also know that there's lots of things that they know that their peers at school don't know. And they also know how to learn and how to explore what they love and how to trust themselves around that. So if, if there's something that they're interested in, in learning, then they will just learn it, and they're stressed by how to learn it. And they're not stressed by whether they're learning it properly, or whether they're going to be good enough and whether they're going to be graded and compared to other people. They just go like Oh, I'm really into that. I'm really interested in that. So I'm going to go and do that. My gave the example the other day on the other podcast about my daughter picked up a guitar the other day at 11 o'clock at night I was asleep but by yeah within 24 hours she taught us how to play the guitar songs and that was just what she wanted to do. She spent probably she was up way too late doing it probably but because she didn't have to get up for school the next morning, it didn't matter. And so yeah, lots of trust, lots of letting them lead the way. Lots of listening support for myself when when, like I said, when I've had doubts, and lots of times people in the community are like, Oh, what about socialisation? Do your children have children? Or do they know their times tables? Do you know like, twins, five is.

55:25

And there are times when we i Yeah, that conditioning around school being the place that our children go to, to learn. And that's where learning happens is really deeply, deeply embedded in so many of us. And so there are times when I thought, Oh, my children ever going to learn anything if they don't go to school. But I've seen time and time again, that my children have learned all kinds of things if they've been interested in it. And I really don't care that there's lots of things that they haven't learned that are in the curriculum, because I see no value in it, if they see no value in it for them. And, yeah, I just, I just think they've been allowed to find things in their own time, as well. So you know, my son, actually, both my kids learned to read quite late. And if they'd been at school, there would have been lots of issues around the fact that they weren't reading yet, because so much of the information in school is presented in that written word form. So children have to learn to read early. And because we were at home and learning was going on, through conversations through experiences in the community through, you know, watching YouTube videos, through reading books, through all kinds of different things, it didn't matter. And I could sit and read to them if there was things that they wanted to learn through reading, when they couldn't quite read yet. And of course, that my children can read completely fine, and everything's fine. And it didn't matter that they didn't learn to read till they were older. So there's lots of that sort of freedom, to just be themselves to explore what they want to explore, and to learn what they want to learn. And it's been amazing to watch them thrive in that. And for them to have been, not had to have so many of those experiences in school, which are stressful. And I do want to say that I realised lots of people would need to send their children to school, yes, I realised that lots of schools are amazing and doing wonderful things to support children. And I realised that there's lots of teachers who are really well motivated and an incredible humans way more patient and amazing than I could ever be. So I really want to say that very clearly. Yep. And I also want to say that there's lots about going to school that is really stressful for our children. And often they're having to separate from us before they're ready to, and there's lots of issues around that. Often, there's lots of issues with teachers and with peers that are really painful and an unpleasant for our children, often, their struggles with learning that are difficult. And then there's a whole lot of stuff about testing, which starts now when they're like five or something. And so they're graded already, and all the stress around that and comparison, and, you know, all that pressure, and you rushing out of the door in the morning, and, you know, not being able to, you know, being told what to learn and what to think, and all of that sort of stuff. So there are lots of things that my children have missed out on as a result of not being at school. And many of those things I'm really glad that they've missed out on and some of I'm sad about. But I also recognise that if I look at it. Now, there is no doubt in my mind that the benefits are far outweighed any cost to them of not being in that school environment.

Shelley Clarke  58:30

Thank you for sharing all of that. And you're right, there is so much you know, my kids are at school and I the and with knowing what I know, around our parenting and natural learning, because I've had many conversations, and I've been in groups with people that do homeschool, it's a wrestle within me all the time that I navigate around, listening to my children, seeing the impact that school does have on them at times, we're going through something at the moment with my daughter, where we are literally trying to work out what we do. And I'm on the cusp of probably bringing her home for a little while. Because yeah, it is really hard when the system and the school system and our two children don't necessarily fit into that. And the stress and the behaviour that I work a lot with families with the after school tears and big behaviours, and all the things that come with that. And that's really hard. And we can play and we can listen and we can hold space for our kids. But if they're constantly going back into that environment, it's really, really tricky. And like you said, there are many, many teachers out there. There's many schools that are doing wonderful things. But the general system is still that children don't necessarily get to learn to you know, choose what they learn and and Choose how long they do something for because the bell goes or the lessons change, and there's just so many things. And so I really love hearing your experience because it gives me even more like, okay, yes, I can do this, I can bring her home, I can give her some space and time to just to recalibrate and come back to who she is. Because at the moment, we just have a lot of feelings every single night. And it's a lot. And I just don't know if I'm willing to keep sending her back into that.

1:00:31

Yeah, it's really, it's a tricky one to navigate. Because you know, all of us are most of us are working and run businesses, and so are our partners. And there's lots of things to juggle. So there are lots of reasons why or it might be a single parents situation, in which case, it's really hard to do that. So, you know, there's no judgement at all about whatever choices that people make. But I have been really surprised this year, in spite of everything that I've learned throughout this process, how many women who I'm working with in our community, for example, including myself, have really significant school hurts that are still showing up for them, and the impact of our school experience on us and our ability to be happy, rounded, deeply connected, connected to our authentic self, all of those things, is really huge. And I mean, I had a really hideous school experience because I was at boarding school from the age of eight. And oh, my god, like in the last year, like exploring school hurts in our web parenting and natural learning community was such a powerful realisation about how much of that was still sitting really deep inside me. And that day to day, I mean, boarding school was particularly traumatic. And I think, you know, children who go to day school and can't get to come home and be supported and listened to and loved can be, obviously a very different experience. But, you know, day in day out in that environment, I was stressed and traumatised, and I was basically in that stress, hyper aroused, or dissociated response all the time. Yeah. 10 years. Yeah. Well, you know, it's only recently, though, I've realised the impact of that isn't. Yeah. And so often, the things that we find challenging in parenthood stem from, or much of the challenge comes from our experiences at school that were really painful. Yeah,

Shelley Clarke  1:02:26

yeah, I would agree with that. Even just beliefs, like I remember being marked on something in year eight, or nine, my art project or something, and it didn't get full marks or something, and, or it got critiqued, and I just had this belief that I'm not creative. So I don't feel like I'm creative, or I'm artistic. We all are. And so there's all musical, you know, there's this belief that I'm not musical, because of not being able to learn the piano when I was six, or something, you know, like, there's so many beliefs that we have, that we've gleaned from our experiences of being judged on our work that just aren't true. And that's what I would really love, you know, all of us to have an awareness of, but some of these beliefs that we have, and just aren't true. And many parents actually, that I worked with around how smart they are. Or, you know, I worked with one dad is like, I just, I'm not, I'm not very smart. And I'm like, where did that come from? And he's like, why couldn't read or write when I was six? So yeah, he might be one of these kids that were would have been 10 When they naturally read or learn to read. But because they're forced too early, it was hard, then we get, you know, adds that pressure, like you said, there's anxiety there. There's all the things that make it really tricky. So yeah, there is a lot from school, there is.

1:03:53

Yeah, and our school system basically tries to fit all children into into into the same box, and our children are all unique individuals. So you know, and it's also very much recognises and honours a particular form of academic learning way above everything else. And many of us aren't, I mean, I love reading books, and doing all that research stuff that I love that that really lights me up, but lots of people don't. So if you're not one of those people, you are set up from a very young age to think of yourself as a failure. Yeah. Because you're in this competitive environment that only has one set of rules. And maybe they don't apply to you. Yeah, it can be really difficult.

Shelley Clarke  1:04:33

Thank you so much for sharing all that. Would you like to tell people where they can find you and tell us a bit more about your natural learning community because I know if there are people thinking about or wanting to know more about natural learning, and I found even though we've sent our kids to school, having this awareness has been really helpful for me, because it's meant that I haven't placed a huge amount of emphasis on some of those academic things and that I've always just been My children kind of within the school system still do their natural sort of way of learning. We don't push reading we haven't, you know. So it's been helpful, even if we do send our kids to school to understand how children learn and trust them. So where can people find you come and join all the things?

1:05:20

Thank you, Shelly. Thanks so much. So my website is awareparenting.com.au. And all of my information is on there. I have, yeah, that's natural learning and aawre parenting community with Marian Rose, who is amazing and extraordinary and fabulous. And I learned more stuff from her every day that I speak to her basically. And it's a pleasure for me to be working with her. And so that is a year long community where we explore month by month, lots of different aspects and topics around natural learning and aware parenting and the parallel processes of those. And so we will be opening the doors again for next year on that at some stage soonish. And we've just started the aware parenting and natural learning podcast that is available on the podcast, the things where we're going to be talking about all of these things. And in fact, she interviewed me on the aware parenting podcast this week, too, so there is an episode there. And I also have my own podcast, aware parenting stories where I'm talking to lots of different people about lots of different things that were parenting. So I'm also on social media as aware parenting with Joss. And I'm just starting a new community with the amazing and wonderful Danny Willow who is just the living embodiment of aware parenting she's amazing and beautiful. So it's so good, that's again, going to be a year long exploration of all the theory of a web parenting as well as like the practice of it in a really compassionate and supportive community where we're going to be supporting parents to go through that parallel journey of a where parenting their children and focusing on particular aspects of that, and we're re parenting themselves at the same time. So it's going to be this really yummy, yummy community that starts officially on the first of October, yay, that's, I'm just about to launch any second now. And aware parenting with teenagers course, which will be like a thing to buy and download, and to read and watch videos and lots of resources and things. And I'm going to be doing live rounds of that where we will have an ongoing moderated group, and lives Q and A's and zoom conversations as part of that. But that's exploring all this stuff around teenagers how to support our teens how to support ourselves. And so I go through lots of different things in there, about you know, how to apply aware parenting theory, specifically to these teenage years. And so again, it's got that theoretical aspect, as well as lots of practical suggestions for people to use. So, really looking forward to that, because that's been a labour of love putting that together. Yeah. And

Shelley Clarke  1:07:50

I think it's so needed that there's many of us that work in the early years in, you know, babies and, and you know, the two, Jeff seven year old kind of range. But I think having more resources for the teen years is really, really needed. So thank you for putting that together. And this will, this podcast will be out really soon. So hopefully, we'll put the links in, we'll put all of those links in the show notes so that people can come and find you and connect with you. And you know, join the teenage, join your, what's going to be called Tina, or we're parenting in teenage years, or

1:08:26

it's going to be called aware parenting, what we're starting with teenagers called

Shelley Clarke  1:08:33

parenting with teenagers to come and join your course. Because that is going to be a wonderful resource, especially if you've just started this or if you've got teams and you have just come across this work. But even if you haven't even been doing it for years, and all of a sudden, now you've got a teenager. It's just helpful to have someone that's been there before and you know, I just love hearing different game ideas and go oh, yeah, I can keep trying that with my kid. And we're always pulling from other people's imaginations and resources. So thank you so much for this beautiful chat. It's I you know, it's always wonderful talking with you. And thank you so much for coming on.

1:09:12

Thank you so much, Sally. I'm really loved it.

Shelley Clarke  1:09:14

Thank you for listening. This episode was brought to you by 21 days of play my self paced course to help bring more play into your everyday. Thank you so much for listening. I would love to know your thoughts and feelings and to continue the conversation. You can connect with me on Instagram and Facebook @_Shelley Clarke_If you'd like to keep in the loop for all my resources and offerings as they happen, you can join my mailing list at www.shelleyclarke.com Thank you for all you're doing. Your parenting is important and powerful. Have a lovely day. Bye for now.