Sharing a new parenting paradigm with grandparents and caregivers

In this incredibly raw episode, listen as Shelley interviews her parents, vulnerably discussing how they came to understand and eventually embrace a shift in parenting paradigm.  Listen as Shelley begins this episode by reading her parents a heartfelt letter, touching on the nuances that come with doing it differently from how she was parented.

In this episode you'll learn about:
- what the hardest parts of learning a new way are for grandparents
- how to deal with misbehaviour when we are frozen in our own nervous system
- the importance in connection and relationships when bringing up kids
- the anaolgy Shelley's Dad offers which perfectly sums up how to communicate a new parenting paradigm 
- the turning point in Shelley's Mum understanding the importance of listening to feelings... and so much more!

If you are wanting to know how to have the conversation around parenting this way with Grandparents and caregivers, then this is the podcast episode for you!

FREE downloadable PDF for Grandparents and caregivers
https://mailchi.mp/shelleyclarke.com/grandparents

Continue the conversation with Shelley here:
https://www.facebook.com/shelleyclarkemindbodyparenting
https://www.instagram.com/_shelleyclarke_/

This podcast is produced by Nikki O'Brien from Quintessential Being

Transcript

Shelley Clarke  00:00

I wish to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I live on. I pay my respects to the Kaurna people elders past and present, and honour their ongoing traditions. Welcome to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host, Shelley Clarke. Here I talk about all things mind and body and how this relates to ourselves and our parenting. I envision a world where children are seen and heard, and parents feel supported and less alone. Join me here in the power of story, expert knowledge and lived experiences. Let's dive in. Today's episode is brought to you by kids in Adelaide. All the best events, activities, places to visit and things to do with your kids in Adelaide and around South Australia. Visit www.kidsinadelaide.com.au. Welcome back to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host, Shelley Clarke. And today's episode is a very big one. I have some very, very special guests, my parents, and we chat about understanding this conscious, respectful, aware parenting philosophy and their journey, as I've learned this approach, and yeah, this is a really vulnerable episode, it feels like a really vulnerable episode. And I've been mentioning this to parents that I've been working with for a while now. But I think it's taken me some time to be ready to share it. Or first of all, to be ready to even have the conversation with mum and dad, but then be ready to share it. So as I said, in this episode, I chat with my parents about raising our children in this new paradigm. And where we're not using rewards or punishment or fear to control and power over our children. But we're really focusing on connection, autonomy choice, the relationship to that, you know that that shift in paradigm. And it's often a shift from the way that most of us were raised, you know, the behaviourist paradigm I've talked a lot about on this podcast. And so you know, moving away from just praising or wanting that good behaviour, to really looking at what's underneath the behaviour and meeting the need, what's driving that behaviour, listening to feelings using play, all of those beautiful things. So I wanted to talk to mum and dad, because I often get asked by parents that I work with, ‘Shelley How do I explain this to my own parents or grandparents, or a carer or an attorney or an uncle, or my own partner who you know,?’ they don't get it or isn't on board yet. And so, you know, I've had many conversations with parents, and hence why I wanted to have this conversation with mum and dad in hope that it makes it a little easier for you have the Listen, you know, you guys listening to open up these conversations with others in your life.

03:33

It's, you know, it's something that I would have loved to have had as a resource. You know, eight years ago, when I was starting this work, to really sort of explain to Mum and Dad What, what we were trying to do. But as we were learning it, I really didn't know even if it would work I didn't know if listening to crying was you know, like, it was so new, that I probably wasn't confident in in being able to share it with them with them in the same way that I am now. So I've made a PDF, a free PDF downloadable that you can share with family members that explains the paradigm and hopefully gives, you know lots of really good information around the approach and the philosophies. Okay, so there's a couple more points that I wanted to make before we dive in. Firstly, a bit more context around the conversation. I've been doing this work for eight years, and 7/8 years about so my son's 10 I started cranial sacral therapy when he was two and I started parenting studies when he was three, so seven or eight years. And while in this conversation with Mum and Dad, it's quite open and vulnerable and there's tears. Please know that this has taken us a long time to get here. This has been a very healing journey for me and our relationship in terms of the Our understanding of the approach and me feeling supported or confident in, in what we're doing as parents, we talk about some moments that have been really hard and share, you know, their side of the story and what they were thinking. And so hopefully, it's helpful. But I also want to say that if you have feelings come up during the during, while you're listening to this episode, to reflect on those to process those in whatever way that you find helpful. Maybe a listening partner, a friend, a therapist, journaling, processing it in any way that you do, whatever feelings may come up, I also want to say that I'm sending out you know, love and compassion for yourself and for your own parents. There's a point in the conversation when Mum is talking about sitting down and suggests sitting down and having a conversation with your parents to explain the method, and to explain the approach. And I just want to say that, you know, while we, this is an open conversation, the podcast, this is one of the, you know, only a couple of conversations that we've had, where we've been able to talk this openly. And I want to say that I know, Mum and Dad are incredible, and I'm very, very lucky that they are incredible at listening and out and being open to new ideas and new philosophies and willing to take it on board. I know that there are many families that I work with many parents that I work with, that it wouldn't, it wouldn't be possible for you to have a conversation with your parents in this way. Or they may not be ever open to learning a new approach. So I want to say that I know how lucky I am to have parents that are unwilling to have these conversations. And some of you, some of you listening may have wonderful relationships in or have already had these conversations easily. And I know others who may have slightly more difficult or painful relationships, that these conversations will be hard. And they might not ever happen. And that's okay, I just wanted to put this little caveat, I suppose at the front of the episode to say if you have feelings coming up, I'm sending you lots of love. If you do have a if you do have some feelings around, you know, feeling like these conversations might not ever happen, because of the dynamic or the relationship that you have with your parents. Well, firstly, I want to say thank you, thank you for showing up. And I'm starting to cry on this. It's not even the start of the episode. Firstly, I just want to say thank you for showing up and being the parent that you are, knowing that you are breaking the generational cycles and the patterns in your family. You know, if you have a relationship with your parents, where these conversations are hard, and it just isn't possible, then you are doing an incredible job of showing up for your kids in a way that is hard if you have never had that model to you, or if you haven't ever experienced that yourself. So yeah, I'm getting teary thinking about thinking about parents, you know, people listening, showing up for their children in this way when they haven't had it modelled or they haven't got loving, war open relationships with your parents. And I know there's many out there that that have tricky relationships. So yeah, firstly, I just want to say thank you. Secondly, I wanted to say that it's okay if other family members don't come on board. Some may never have grandparents that are involved or be able to have relationships in this way, or for them to understand this paradigm. And that's okay. If and I think you know, often attachment experts and people out in the field, talk about having one caregiver, one person, if a child has one person where they have a real in that relationship, they feel like they can cry and they can be themselves and they can rage and they can have all their feelings and they feel safe and secure and seen, then that's enough. They have that one relationship where they feel really, really safe and secure and held by you and that it's okay. If other family members don't necessarily having exactly the same approach. And

09:53

I would also want to say that your parents might not actually get this straight away. You know, mum talks a little bit about in this episode, to sit down and have you know, a conversation start to finish and you know, so that you can really explain it. And I will just say that, you know, we are… I have been talking about this approach for many years. And that sometimes it takes a while for the philosophies and things to land. So you might share this episode with your grandparents or your with your parents, or a family member or someone in your child's life. And it might not, they might not get it, or they might not be on board. But don't underestimate the seeds that you are planting. Because, you know, I remember mum and dad came to a talk of mine about five or six years ago. And they heard me do a Hand in Hand Talk. So they've heard the tools. But then, and then I've talked about different things over the years. But sometimes it takes someone else to hear it. And I think the podcast has been a wonderful catalyst for us to have these conversations. And in in a way, I think the podcast for me has been very healing, because it has opened up these conversations for us. And I think hearing other experts and other people that I've interviewed has helped mom and dad hear it in different ways. And for it to, for them to really understand the whole the whole philosophy. And so, you know, don't underestimate the seeds that you sow, when you share this information, and when you talk about it, and also know that it can sometimes take many years for, for people to for it to land, I think Mum shares an experience in the, in the episode around her own mother. And I think that experience really helped her to understand and because she had her own experience of, of listening to feelings and feelings coming up from a really long time ago. And so, you know, just know that this can take a while, because you've got many, many years of conditioning to work through, you can just take a while to hear this information in many different ways. So I'm hoping that with this episode, and with the PDF downloadable, you know, resource that's available for you that it helps with these conversations that I didn't have these resources, you know, a few years ago, to kind of open up these conversations with your parents. So I think that's all I wanted to talk about before the episode. Oh, one more thing on on, if parents or grandparents aren't on board, or have their own ways of being as long as that relationship is safe, you know, as long as it's, you know, the child's you they they are going to be safe, I actually really strongly believe in for a long time. I didn't it didn't bother me that mum and dad, you know, use rewards or punishments or different things, that they weren't quite aligned with the philosophies that we were parenting with. Because it was more important for me to for my children to have that relationship with their parents, rather than for them to be, you know, perfectly aligned with our approach. So it's meant that we've had conversations with my kids around well, people do things differently. And how did that make you feel when that happened? And it's meant that children have been exposed to different ways of being in the world, and it's opened up conversations for us, and they've had really loving relationships with all of their grandparents and, and so I just wanted to keep that in mind as well, that sometimes it can be the importance of the grandparent relationship. Like I said, as long as it's safe, will trump whether they are exactly aligned or not with with this approach, so I thought I'd just pop that in there as well. Okay, so let's dive in. Let's do this. Here's the episode. I really hope you enjoy it. I hope it's helpful. As I said, there's the free downloadable PDF in the show notes, the links in the show notes, it'll be in my social media, in the bio on my Instagram account, it'll also be sent out my mailing list. So if you want to jump on my mailing list, you can do that as well. So that you have this resource and I would just really, really hope it's helpful for you. So let's do this. Hello, and welcome back to the mind body parenting podcast. I'm your host, Shelly Clark, and today I am really excited and slightly nervous and scared because I am chatting with my parents. So Mum and Dad are here today and I thought it would be really lovely to have a conversation with them about their experience of this journey that we've been on with parenting and understanding Aware parenting and hand in hand parenting, and just a difference in paradigm shifts. So I've got them here today to have a chat. And I'm sure that there'll be many tears. So hopefully, it's helpful for others that are travelling, the parenting journey, but also raising their children, but you know, informing or having their their own parents come on this journey as well. So, welcome mom and

15:36

dad. Hello, hello. 

15:39

I think first of all, I want to start by reading you guys a letter,

15:43

Which… mums already crying and I’m crying too. So this is going to be great listening.

15:49

I think one of the things that I don't know, many, many psychological approaches or tools out there, you know, often, you know, get you to write a letter to the person or two people, and it can be really therapeutic. And it can sometimes you might want to give that letter to people. And other times, you might keep it for yourself. But I wrote one today that I wanted to read out, and I think you Van collenberg, from the Resilience Project, talks a lot about writing letters and, and I listened to his podcast recently where he he wrote a letter to his parents. And I thought, what a wonderful way to start this podcast with writing a letter to mom and dad. So I will try and read this out, as best I can. And then we will also chat

16:31

about it afterwards. Okay, so dear mum and dad, and mum and dad is sitting here

16:39

right with me in front of me. So this was

16:41

done. We sat down before and we were like, Oh, this was a bit scared. A bit scared. Yeah. So even just sitting down and talking to your parents about these things is is a really hard thing to do. So here we go. Dear mum and dad. Firstly, thank you for coming on the podcast today. I've been wanting to write to both of you for a long time now. So I thought this is a nice time to share my thoughts with you both. I want to say thank you, thank you for raising us in the way that you have. I've said this before, but I really wanted to say it again, thank you for the love and support that you have given us over the years, is incredible, and unwavering. I know that over the years since becoming a parent myself, and me learning all this about children and the nervous system and trauma. And this new paradigm of parenting, you have wondered what you did wrong. And I want to say that you've done nothing wrong. It is because of your love, and all that you have given us that I have been able to study and understand these philosophies. It is because of the love and support that you have given us all of your children, that we are able to follow our passions in life and raise children of our own. And I'm so very, very grateful for you. You will raising us in an era where we didn't know these things. We didn't know and have this information. It wasn't even out there then. So I know that you did everything. Everything that you possibly knew what to do. And we are so incredibly lucky to have the childhood that we had. We had every everything that we wanted, every need met in terms of fun, holidays, laughter, connection, sport. And I'm really, really, really lucky. Even my own children will grow up and have things as adults, that they may not that I may not have provided for them. Even with this style of parenting and understanding that we have now there will still be needs that I won't meet. But we got the big things, we got the big things that really mattered. And I'm so grateful for that. That your ability to teach us things and show us how to do things has meant that I've had the confidence to give things a go to tackle new challenges, and know that I can learn new skills, and I'm so grateful for your patience and love. I remember this one time as a child, you were out teaching me how to single waterski over and over again. With me getting more and more frustrated and losing it but each time you would round the boat around and just offer the simplest of words of encouragement. And eventually I learned how to ski climb mountains snow ski field plan and things, paint things, drive, do all the handy things around the house. And I'm so lucky to have always had your backing mom. Your love, dedication and service to others has had an huge influence on me. You're always there and willing to offer support to those who need it. And it has shown me the power and importance of community, your ability to get things done is literally like no one I know. And it's inspiring. Your grit, determination and can do attitude is something I'll always be grateful for. And it has had a huge influence on my life. Thank you for all your love and support over the years. But even more so since we have become parents ourselves. We would not be where we are today without your love and support. Thank you for loving me. Thank you for all that you've given us. I love you both so much. Love Shelley. Well, I'm sure what was that to many things. Can you talk?

21:18

Not really not really. Thank you for the letter. It's not often that people write your letters like that. So it's, it's probably a good thing that lots of people shouldn't do. And I kind of wish I'd done it with my parents. Yeah,

21:39

it is a good thing, because I think we forget to say these things to people. And I know with with learning these things, and listening to feelings, and with understanding all of the stuff we do now with a paradigm shift in parenting, it can be really easy to look at the things that you as, you know, adult children, the things that you didn't get, or the things that the needs that weren't met. But I think something that I've really been able to do over the last few years is look at the things that we did get, because every bit every single person is going to get to adulthood with things that we may or may not have gotten from our childhoods that we needed. But I really want to know, hence in the letter explained that we got I got so much from my childhood and from from both of you. And we don't tell people that enough. I don't think

22:38

I'd agree with that. You know, you just you go about your life, and you don't actually ever stop to reflect on those things, I guess until you get older, and maybe don't have that that bear. Yeah. Yep. It's things you think, you know, you should have said that you didn't. So something like that letter, something was wonderful, quite this Sunday afternoon, I guess. But really, I guess the essence of the letter is about parenting and the way you grow up. And I must admit that the journey that you are not to have our own has been different to the journey that the way we were brought up, you know, 60 years ago, and the way we brought you up at 40 years ago, the information that's out there is vastly Well, there's just so much information that's available. And I think that it's almost like overwhelming. If people seek out so many different avenues that are you know, there's information on and at some stage you have to pick some things that you're going to work with, and go with it and see where it leads you and trust your own instincts in terms of whether it's working for your kids in your family, because ultimately it is your family. Whilst there's an extended family, which we're part of for you, you and Matthew and your three kids, it's your family and what you choose to eat and how you choose to spend your money. And what you choose to do on the weekends is your your choice and the way that you choose the journey, the parenting journey and the way you choose to do things. Whilst we are very much want to be a part of that. It's the individuals choice

24:54

which we start there and and talk a little bit more about that in terms of because I know I now that I'm like, recovered from reading that letter.

25:05

I know that it's been hard at times to understand where we're coming from with our philosophies, or with listening to children or with the way we're trying to parent. And I know that that has been hard. So maybe should we start there in terms of like, what things were hard to think I say, let's backtrack a bit. My main reason for wanting to get you on this podcast is to potentially help other pet grandparents, where say their kids are adopting or looking at a way parenting or hand in hand parenting or listening to children or conscious parenting approaches. And it can be really hard to navigate when you're trying to parent your kids in a different way to the way that you were parented. And I have found that hard at times to explain, firstly, what I was doing, because I didn't even really know what I was doing when we first started this. And it was 10 years ago, it was, you know, eight years ago, when we came across this approach, it was still so knew, too, that I, I didn't know what I'm doing. And I would find it hard to listen to children when they were around, you know, when we were around each other, or when we're having holidays, or, and I found it hard to explain what we were doing. And, and so I think, our journey, you know, since starting the podcast, you both have said in a conversation a few months ago, that you have a bit more awareness now of like, start to finish what the philosophy is, and have a lot more understanding around it. And that has been helpful for me, or it's made it even easier for me to talk about these things with you more openly. Hence, this podcast, which I've wanted to do for a while. But I also know it's really hard, it's a really hard thing to do. So, what have you found hard, I suppose, throughout this time, or what, what do you now know, since learning more around the philosophy,

27:12

when you started this approach, I guess it was quite different to what we were used to. And we found it a quite difficult to watch at times, you're listening to the kids, and we're sitting back down what the hell is going on. And I guess that's going to be difficult for anybody's observing something different. But you. And we also found that we were a little bit upset as well, because we had the impression that we hadn't parented properly at times, just from some of the things that you were putting out. So thanks for the letter really means a lot to us, as far as the observing of what's going on from a distance. And like I said, at some stage of the conversation, we really don't know what the end game is going to look like. Because it's still pretty new. And the you know, we haven't been doing it long enough to really see the end result of these kids turning out to be fine adults, which I'm pretty sure they will be, from our experience point of view, extremely different. And we're also in a position where we've gone through a whole myriad of learning styles through teachers conferences, and just basically teaching for so long. Whatever goes around comes around eventually and we've seen all these different teaching styles which can relate to parenting styles. So we, we at the time, bring you guys up was what we knew from our own experiences, our own parents, or loving environments and not not threatening, not aggressive, not not violent. environments, it was all the opposite was just having fun and going on holidays and just experiencing life as a as a group. A shared experience was always fantastic. So you know, to be honest, we, we thought we did okay. Okay. But initially, it was like, oh my god, we we were crap parents. But obviously you were that. So the advice out there is to have a conversation with the grandparents and get it all out and do that early so that they don't feel like they've done something wrong. They're all do the right thing.

30:03

I think, Can I just jump in there, man before you come in one thing with that, and I know that, that makes a really good point, because we sat down and I did, you know, you came to a couple of my early talks and things around hand in hand, you know, five or six years ago, but I really found it hard. And I'm sure, this may be saying similar to listeners, if you're listening, you know, I grew up wanting to be a good kid, and wanting to, you know, please my parents and wanting their approval. And so parenting in a different way. And it's not even a different way, there's so many things that we are replicating in our parenting with what we received, you know, the love the support the connection, the difference, really, is it just understanding feelings and understanding, praying and, you know, understanding that it's helpful to move these feelings through our bodies as opposed to holding them in. And I have had anxiety at times through my life where I have held lots of stuff in and, and so a big part of me worrying about that one of the reasons why I found it really hard to sit down and have this conversation. You know, I'm 10 years into her parenting, and we, I found it really hard to sit down and have a conversation of like, this is what the way we want to parent and why because I haven't wanted to upset you. And I haven't wanted to, I haven't want to, for you to think that you've done something wrong, or that you've, you know, but me not doing that actually sent that message anyway. And it also didn't give you a chance to hear all the information earlier, then. Now, and I'm really sorry for that. Because I realised that, you know, having inflammation is such a big part of our way of parenting that now that you have actually had on the got a lot of inflammation with listening to the podcast, I think I needed to create a podcast so that you can understand. And so I think the reason why I wanted this episode is so that, you know, maybe other parents and grandparents can have this conversation a lot earlier, because I know I'm not the only one, a lot of my clients, I find it hard to talk to my parents about this, I don't want to I don't want them to think they've done something wrong. I don't want them to think that I've think poorly of them or that I don't want them to feel like they've done a terrible job or any of those things. And so it's hard to have these conversations. Now I've forgotten what my question was. But anyway, I just wanted to say thing. I'm sorry that I didn't have that conversation earlier. And in some ways, you know, we were just going about our way of trying to learn it and really understand it, and I kind of need to understand things. Too far, I'm really confident in it. And there'd be times where I was around you guys and the kids were misbehaving. And I would freeze like I would not know how to parent because I was so triggered by my own feelings coming up that I would, I would it would look like I wasn't doing anything because I wasn't because I wasn't able to respond in the way that I wanted to by listening to kids or by play or by whatever, you know, the the new paradigm sort of responses that I was wanting to do validating feelings, I would resort back to threats or punishments, or I would do nothing because or I would be quite permissive and not say much. But when I got home, we would listen to feelings and and help them to move through the feelings. So it would probably have looked like we weren't doing much because because I found like I wasn't I found it hard to respond because I was still quite frozen in my own nervous system. Does that make sense?

34:09

I thought you look like you're very confident with what you're doing. Yeah, frozen. And sounds like you've been doing that quite a bit over your lifestyle like we we always thought you're supremely confident and competent. You know, when you were living by yourself down the flip. There were times where you know, you you were in some dark places. We didn't know that because you come across as being completely in control. So yeah. And that's been the appearance all the way through this. This process.

34:44

Yeah. Which is really interesting. And I think that's one of the things that I'm probably getting better at is actually letting my feelings out.

34:52

Having a good crack at it today.

34:55

Letting them out in front of you because it's probably something that I learned really Only on as a coping strategy of being that stoic and it's certainly not just me, it's I'm sure it's within a lot of the generation and your generation had to be even more stoic, you know, and feelings were even less understood and heard in, in your era of, of growing up. So, yeah, ma'am.

35:24

Well, it's an interesting journey. It's hasn't been easy at times. And I think that the hard part is when behaviours don't fit into the box that we're used to. And, you know, coming from an education background where you, you know, you've got 30 kids in your class, and you manage that, and that's safe, and you hope that kids are learning and enjoying the whole journey. Suddenly, there's behaviour that you're around, and you go, cool, this is not very comfortable. This is not how I was brought up, this is not how I have responded, perhaps in the past. And so you know, it's, it's not easy, it's not easy for the parent of the child. And it's probably not easy for the grandparent to watch. And, but it's also exciting to think that there's other ways of doing things that are going to help kids because let's face it, there's lots of problems in the world where kids don't grow up as balanced and as happy as what people around us have. So it's exciting to see that there's stuff out there. And people can challenge and do things in different ways. So yes, different. But in, in reflection, before you came, I thought to myself, well, in actual fact, there's not a lot of difference, because it's from what I've seen of all the different, you know, aware pandering, and all the different things, that it's built on relationships, and it's just how those relationships are developed, within or between the parent and the child or the, the two parents or whatever. So it's getting the best relationship that you can. And in the past, we kind of really only had what we'd seen and you know, you experiment and try things, whereas now there's that information that gives you the chance to try different things, the listening, and the play, and those things to just build those relationships and connections. But the value of connection and listening and good relationships is still the basis that is going to be really important in bringing up kids.

38:02

Yeah, and I just wanted to say like, that is what we have. That's what we've received from you guys. Like we I look at my upbringing, and it was based on connection and relationships and understanding and, and so that's why I wanted to share that wood in the letter because I know that it probably has felt like you've had that doubts at times of like, Oh, why don't we do different wiring or all those things, but it's actually, and I think even Reshet research shows that we only need to be doing these things 30% of the time for kids to grow up with that secure attachment to have a well, like you said, balanced connection to self. And so we can't meet and meet needs and do this way all the time. And we got that, like we got so much of that from our childhood. I suppose the difference in the paradigm is a couple of the biggest differences would be understanding where that behaviour is coming from, like you said, the unenjoyable behaviour and rather than that kids naughty, or they're just misbehaving, because they want to do that, or whatever they might be going on. For them. It's understanding what's underneath that behaviour. And realising that there's often feelings underneath there and listening to those feelings. And I think that's probably been one of the hardest things to navigate or to explain or to work through that and playful responses to and you guys plays so well. And that's one thing that, that I'm so grateful you jumped into really early on is, you know, understanding play and be more playful with the kids. So yeah, I'm not sure if I have a question there or if it's more just how have you found the listening to crying part or, or do you have any comments from Um, that

40:01

the listening to cry is probably the thing that I have found most difficult purely because we have this desire all the time to fix crying. And you know, you don't want to see people crying because it means they're sad, and you want to try and help. So that's, that's probably the hardest. But I've actually watched the Lawrence baby cry. I get panicky that I go, Oh, I'm just hanging there five minutes she'll be okay she's got something just polar hang on to. She's regularly everywhere. I think the feeling's gone. She settles into this fine, but that crying is really tricky. Yeah,

41:07

it is hard to listen to crying, because often it's not something that was done for you guys. And certainly, when I first started I reflected on when I didn't know is with Isla remember when I just couldn't handle her crying so I would I would feed her. And I would Diggle her and I would get so anxious, that same feeling that you were just describing like panic in my body of like, Why isn't she coming down? And what's going on? And why can't I fix this and that sort of anxiety in my body. And one of the things that shifted for me when I learned this and understanding that babies often need to let feelings out through crying once you've met all their other needs. So you meet their needs for food and, you know, to nappy changes and being held and you're meeting all the other physical needs. But there's actually also the need to let those feelings out. And that once they've had a chance for those to be heard, then they are deeply relaxed and calm. And it's not about us fixing. It's just about us holding space for that. And I think over the years, when I experienced that more and more through this training and through understanding this more as like, Oh, this is how our kids feel I've become more and more confident in listening to the crying. I think when I first started, I was just like, you can't listen to this. It's really hard. And it would give me anxiety. But the more I had worked through my own feelings of having my own feelings heard, the more I was actually able to listen to my kids crying, that then they come back into balance and they do babies I think I've I've noticed a difference from when my kids were born. We didn't know any of this stuff, too. Then now my niece and my sister's savvy who were just talking about who you listen, you like you hold savvy, and I like, you know, just there with it. But my, but Lauren has said, you know you it's just a shift because you know this now, like, you know this a lot more deeply. And it is just a journey to understand that with crying that. Do you have anything around tears? Because

43:19

yeah, the hardest part was observing long meltdowns. Yeah, the would go for 20 minutes, you know, just and we would be like sitting back going, Oh, my God, can we get out of here?

43:37

It was our lack of understanding that there was something underlying what appeared to set it off. You know, we would think the colour of the bowl that your ice cream was in, set it off. Well, that might have been the final straw or there was something else underneath. But until we kind of got a bit more of an understanding. We would go good god kid get a grip. It's a purple bowl, not a pink. Well, yeah. But that we have learned isn't the underlying cause? Yes. Sorry. Keep going.

44:13

So I mean, there were there were a couple of situations where we had no idea what to do. So we were trying to help and that just made it worse. So we left and that made it worse. And then

44:27

you're talking about the stock, okay? We're literally talking about the soccer.

44:33

Let's give people some context of the soccer. This is an incident that happened about a year ago. And this was sort of where, and I know that I'm not the only one that has had difficult moments with their kids and their parents. And so I think talking about this is hopefully going to help someone else out there. If not, it's healing for us as a family. So this is like a family therapy session that everyone's coming in on And we've talked about this already, we talked about this a few months ago, when mum and dad hadn't realised they're like, Oh, I get this a bit more now. So soccer happened a few weeks, like last year, were at my son's soccer and he got in the car and the aim that the plan was to go to mum and dad's, they were going to mum and dad, were going to take the kids to up to their house and Matt and I were gonna go home and clean the house or tidy up or do something. And but after sport, and this is something that I might even do another podcast on, because after sport, your child as often if they're learning a sport, if they're on for say soccer or football or something, they're often in fight or flight for a lot of that they're often thinking they're often a bit nervous, they're often have a buildup of tension in their nervous system from just the excitement and maybe slightly scared from the sporting, you know, from learning something new, that they get in the car, and it all comes out. So they get in the car, and they you know, we've had meltdowns or cries from or something has happened in the game, you know, maybe they get whacked, or they get a knock, or they get something that they've held on to and they get in a car and boom, it all comes out. And the other things are often hungry. So you know, you know that it can all come out when they get in the car. So when we've had that several times we get in the car and there's a meltdown over, you know, someone saw the shoe not being able to come off or you know, you didn't bring the right food or you didn't bring right snacks. And so we got the kids in the car, and they all started crying, because they didn't want to go to Nana and grandpa's, which they actually did, but they just had feelings from the build up of sport and all the things which mum and dad didn't know what that was at the time, they just thought that they didn't now want to go to Nana and grandpa's house. But what I was trying to do was just listen to those feelings and listen to the crying. This was an incident where we're out in public, it's very hard to listen to children's feelings in public. Because of you know, you're doing something different. Matt wanted to go home, I think every everyone was stressed and struggling mum was trying to help by showing them a YouTube video and distracting them out of their feelings,

47:18

and, and then bring back this car into their other car.

47:22

And then our friends, our friends,

47:24

one of our friends back to their car into another car because they were distracted by this crime that was happening in our car. Dad, my dad was going this is bullshit, let's go and let's take them and they'll be fine. And not even my mom. Sort of we had all, we were all a little triggered. And I was sort of going, can we just stop for a moment and listen, and let's give the kids a moment to have their feelings. And, you know, in the end, Mom and Dad went came home, they left. And I know that they were upset because they left and thought well, the kids now don't want to be with us or we've made this worse or they couldn't fix it or, and I'm sure you've probably have your own feelings about that. But then my Matt actually, you know, apologise to the kids and said, I'm really sorry that he yelled at them. And so we sat in the car, we sat in a car park and we listened. And I sat there and I said okay, guys, you know, we're just gonna sit here for a minute, and we listened to probably about 10 or 15 minutes of crying. We said sorry that we weren't listening. Well, you know, Matt had yelled, so we apologise. And we repaired that. And then once they had stopped crying, which was about 15 minutes, they said, Oh, can we go to Nana's now? And in my head? I thought, Oh, God, are we are we welcome because you know, that didn't go down? Well. So I rang mom and said, Oh, we're coming up now. And, and the kids came up. And they were fun. They had a great time. They saw their cousins, they you know, played and we came up, we dropped them up to mom and dads. And I know mom and dad. That was a hard for you guys. And you can talk a little bit more about this scenario. Because I had said, Oh, I would I'm happy to talk about that. Do you want to talk about what that was? And at that moment, actually, Dad had said, No, you don't want to hear what I have to say about your parenting. And that for me probably took several months to get over. Because I was like, well, actually, I do want to hear about it. Because not telling me is actually really, really hard. And so I left and I cried all the way home. And I had several therapy sessions around that incident. Not therapy sessions, but several listening time around how hard this is to parent in a different way. And when when everyone's triggered by crying and what do we do instead? And so, you know, that was the perfect storm. And we have talked a little bit about that moment and I'm sure I'd love to hear your thoughts on that a bit. or, as well, now that we've talked about that. But in hindsight, what I would have, and I've said this to Mum, Dad already, what I would have probably done is notice that my kids needed a big cry, know that the crying does sometimes set other adults off. If it's, you know, it does bring up lots of feelings for other adults, that I would have just said, Hey, look, just go home. And we'll bring them up when they're finished. And we'll come up in half an hour. And now that we've talked about this more, and had these conversations, I could just say to them, they just need to be proud, we'll be there and 20. And you guys would be like, Okay, sure. And you know, that it's not taking it personally, you know, that your grandkids don't hate you and don't want to spend time with you. It's actually just that it's literally the build up from sport and whatever else. And, you know, I would have handled it handled at that a lot differently. And I know, you have said, What would you what could you have done differently? And I think the more that we get comfortable with feelings that you could have that it's just about listening to them and not trying to fix it and just go, oh, okay, yeah, you know, that was a big game of soccer, or let them have their big cry, and not shutting it down, I think is one of the things that

51:14

was,

51:17

is trying to, like I said before, you don't want people to be upset. So your your first instinct as an adult, is to try and help. And your way of helping is to, perhaps distract them, perhaps, and dismiss the whole incident as he is still thinking it's over the pink or the purple bowl, whereas its way might be something that happened yesterday. So that's the hard part is to, I guess, be there but not try and change just to to allow things to happen. But I would say as part of that whole big story about the soccer and, and, you know, some other times, that, you know, don't come to mind as major incidences, but you where you've gone up, goodness me is that lack of knowledge for the grandparent, is way more damaging than to have sat down and have a conversation. So, you know, before we started today, one of your questions which you sent to us was, what would you say to parents that are taking a slightly different perspective on what they do with their kids? What would you say that they, they do, and I, I think that if grandparents have to be a part of your child's life, and I don't just mean a casual if, you know, once a month t on a Sunday night, but I really a part of your child's upbringing that you're actually take the grandparents on the journey with you. Now that in itself is probably not easy to do because they might want to go on the journey they might want to see that there are other ways that things can be approached because what they did worked for them as being brought up you know, 60 years ago or longer. But I think it's important that you have the conversation about what you're trying to achieve with the kids and how you're building the relationships which are still really important but as slightly the way you're going about it is perhaps different in terms of the listening and some of the shifting paradigm from design I say right now to do as I've asked you but yeah in five minutes another one we do have a little bit of different

54:10

mindset about their house. I did

54:15

I didn't want to I guess upset you at the time but and that's probably why I said have this conversation later. But at the time I was concerned that the kids were playing you know, that was they were I guess having didn't appear to have any boundaries at the time like things were just going going going and they were

54:42

crying so they were trying to get their own way for

54:47

their own way get their attention get the get get all the stuff that Whistler sit back get or oh my goodness, looking at this happening. So we've we probably should have at that time. Just go yep, You're in, let's go, we'll see you in half an hour and not sit there and go, Well, you can't be with us. Are you going with them? What are you going to make up?

55:08

Your Mind? Hurry up,

55:08

hurry up, do that. And we did drive away pretty upset. Because, you know, we, we thought we'd been thought we'd been accused of getting a nose in, where it shouldn't have been, and all that sort of stuff. So the reason why I didn't have a conversation with you then was I didn't want to literally jump in and say, This is my opinion. But you know, what you're doing is what you're doing. Whereas I should have had that conversation because it made you feel worse when it didn't say, so you're going, what was he going to say? What is he thinking about? Yeah, what I was thinking that was one of those looking from the outside going, Oh, my God, there's no discipline here. There's no, there's no boundaries, there's, you know, the kids are in complete control over what's going on. And they're getting their own way. And, you know, all those sorts of things that you look back from look at from the outside. Going, this is not how I, I would like it to be, but it's not as family.

56:12

So we should have doesn't mean we should have gotten the car and just gone. doesn't make it wrong. It's different to way.

56:20

Now the thing is, I have been thinking, trying to think back of any times where you guys were doing that sort of thing with us. And I can't remember so maybe you guys just held it in? And you know, we didn't know. So we just have

56:39

to mark the edge of the row. Well, we

56:41

do. Yes. It's another story we can talk about? And I would say yes, I he had a really good analogy which you can share it I don't know if you want to share again about the football coaches, like when you're on the sidelines of the because from the outside when a kid is crying and laying or sitting in the you know, they were sitting in their car screaming, saying I want to go home and I don't want to go to Nana's and I'm saying Hang on a second, let me just listen. And, and everyone around us is like, it's all sort of tense. It does look like from from the old paradigm, or the behaviours paradigm of like, Goddess kids just, you know, having a meltdown to get their own way. But it's actually a shift in understanding that once they've just let their feelings out. Like we do have limits, we have limits with kids, we don't you know, we say no, we have things they do get to have a lot of autonomy and what they choose. But it probably doesn't look like that when you only seen the snippets of of it.

57:39

The analogy is, you know, just observing as a spectator or you know, sideline support or watching a game of something. And things are going pretty badly on the field. Yeah, like a football game, or the football game or volleyball game or whatever. And you're sitting back calm, what's, what's this rubbish that they're dishing up. But it could be partway through the game plan that they're trying to develop over a season. And we don't know what that is. But you know, it takes awhile it takes a while to get get that game plan operating smoothly. Yes. And families, it's not going to happen all the time. It'll, it'll be a gradual, sort of move towards that operating smoothly for everybody. So just be an observer and have a bit of faith and confidence in the, in the mum and dad in the game plan the game plan.

58:33

And I think I'd love to talk about that for a second is because, yes, like so going back to the comment, we said, I don't remember that you guys ever did this as kids, you know, had a big huge cries or big huge meltdowns. And I would say that, and this is what I've seen with kids that I work with and with families. And my own kids is that kids learn really quickly, who has capacity to listen to feelings and who doesn't. And even my own kids within our own family, they have learned really quickly, you know, who has capacity and who doesn't. And so kids will hold it in kids will go to school, or now holding all their feelings and they'll come home and they'll let them all out. Or, you know, within our own families, we just, and I didn't know that I didn't consciously choose these things. It's just you just know that that's not acceptable or not listened to or not sort of business face for it in in the relationship. So you hold it in. And hence why a lot of probably my life that you wouldn't have known that I was had feelings or was actually like, one of the things that I've been to I don't know if I've ever told you and it's come up this year, a bit with my daughter who's had a really tough year at school and she's had a teacher that she's really scared of and A big part of me going through this journey with her is that I had a teacher and before that I was terrified. And I don't know if I ever told you, I don't know if you ever would have known that I was so terrified of him. And I would I did nervous ways, like I went to the toilet, you know, before school, started recess and recess, start a lunch and have lunch, like five or six weeks a day, because he never let us go to the toilet during class time. And I never wanted to have to ask, and I, you know,

1:00:33

so this is a whole year. And a few months ago, I had a huge

1:00:37

cry about his about that about the fact that what was I knew for I would have been chained 10 No, maybe. Yeah. So for 30 years, have held into held on to feelings of being scared to talk or being scared to ask questions, you know, I'm shaking now talking about it. Because, you know, we can hold on to feelings for a really long time, if they haven't had space for it. And hence why going back to your long term game plan, Dad, it might look like the kids are having meltdowns, and the parent isn't doing anything about it. But actually, what they're doing is a long term game plan, so that that kid has had space for these feelings to shift and to move. And once they've moved through them and have been heard, they don't get held in our bodies, we don't carry them around anymore. And so the aim is the long term game plan here is that you have deep loving relationships, which we have got anyway, I'm very lucky, right? I'm very lucky that we have that anyway. But there's still a depth there that I would love to show you even more of how I truly feel because I've been scared to it times. Because, you know, whether I've been scared that it won't be heard or that it will be dismissed or whatever. But the aim is that long term, our kids grow up with less anxiety, or with less Holding, holding it in with less sort of mental health things or, you know, all sorts of things that adults have. And I work a lot with adults that are processing things from their childhoods. And so that would be the long term game plan is we're listening now, which looks like we're not doing anything to the for the behaviours, but we're listening to the feelings that are underneath for so that they grow into adults that are really deeply connected to who they are, I feel like I've taken a lot of my adulthood to have the confidence to share what, what I know inside or to show the world who I actually am as opposed to who I think I should be, or who I think I should be, because that's the good kid, or the that's what I think people want me to be or what people want me to say. That makes sense. It took me a long time to want to share this work, because I was terrified that it was a slightly different approach. And I didn't want to be the weird one in the family doing this strange craniosacral therapy and strange parenting approach.

1:03:18

So right, we used to say that you were going to buy a photo booth one night at the tea table. So we get used to, you know, some some different things. Yeah, it's certainly been a journey. You asked a little bit before about or you in one of your questions about what was your last question?

1:03:45

Is there anything from your own child that childhood that you feel we could do more of these days? Is that the question?

1:03:50

Yeah, yeah, that's the question. And

1:03:52

from our child. Yeah.

1:03:55

I think what we could do more of would be less devices when you're actually present with your child. My observation of the way things are travelling is that you see parents who are perhaps in a playground with their children, or they're out and about maybe at a coffee shop or somewhere or they're at playgroup. And they're supposedly present with their child or even home on the lounge room for but they're actually not present. They're on their device. They're not really playing with their kids, their kids, talking to them, and they catch every third word. So what could we do more of from our child? You know, your childhood is just linked up with our childhood and in your childhood, is to do more things with kids, but actually be there with them and not half, half there and half on your device or, yeah, thinking about other things. And the the thing that, you know, special time I've seen the real value of, of that, with, you know, you as parents, with your children, but also us as grandparents, you know, you've got 25 minutes, we've got half an hour now, what do you want to do, and trying to be present for kids rather than half present? Yeah,

1:05:37

I agree. I think that's a wonderful point. And I think one of the things with that mom is that, you know, one, you guys didn't even have mobile phones when we when we were growing up. So it wasn't even a temptation. And certainly, like, even though I talk about this, and I do this work, there are so many times where I'm not present with my kids, because I'm on my phone. Absolutely. And that's something that I talked to Matt about all the time. And I'm like, Okay, we need to turn this off and be present. And, and so we can always be reflecting on our own behaviours, and reflecting on our own ways of being. And I think that is something we got a lot of from you guys, because you didn't have that. And you also didn't have the overwhelm of information, like you said before, it can be really tempting, I might be on my phone, and I'm like, I'm just learning something, I'm just reading this really important article, it's not important. You know, it's not actually, you know, like it might add to, you can get information overload, though, where the most important thing for me to do is put my phone down and go and connect with my kids. And to go and take them out to a park or go for a bush walk, go for a bike ride, or, you know, do something like that. And so we are really conscious, and it ebbs and flows, we might go through stages, where things are busy, and there is a little bit more disconnection and, and then we noticed the behaviours really, really increase and the off track behaviours and the unenjoyable behaviours are more. And so we go, Okay, hang on, we need to bring back in special time and connection and because really connection is the key to your how your child feels and the relationship. And I think the fact that you have taken on special time and done that with the kids really has deepened their relationship with you both.

1:07:21

The other thing as part of this journey is with, you know, I've I have talked to said before, is that sitting down and taking your parents or your caregivers, or your babysitter or your whoever with you on the journey. And whilst you may not, they may not have the depth of knowledge, obviously, that someone like your sofas got that you give them the key points and some understanding of why you're trying to do it. But also, it's really important that your partner is completely on the same page. It's no good half the house being running on a on a model of parenting and the other person is just being dragged along because one is on that model. So that that discussion with everybody. Whilst that's probably hard, is really, really important. And for parents out there listening, I'd say. And for grandparents, if someone sits you down and says, Well, we want to tackle things in this way. It doesn't mean that your way was wrong. You know, everyone eats different food, everybody spends different amounts of money or goes holidaying in different ways. Everyone's different. So it's about accepting those differences and exploring where it takes people if that's the choice they make. Yeah,

1:08:54

Dad, do you have anything to add with that

1:08:56

you're talking about my child was on a farm and basically either had a brother to play with, which would end up with me with a bloody nose, some stage or by myself. So I guess I learnt to entertain myself with you know, the model cars or whatever. Use my imagination, quite a lot like literally no other, no other form of entertainment. So I think developing that sort of imagination was was actually quite empowering, to be honest, absolutely. Not to rely on anything. Which is a really,

1:09:33

like, we know that play is so important.

1:09:36

By yourself and Jimmy sits down and plays by himself. It's fantastic. You need to have that time and all the skill to do that. The other thing with their own family. We were fortunate enough to both be teachers. So our holidays time we're always together as a family. We had time after school to go out and boat and go, waterskiing and all, you know, we were very, very fortunate and a lot of families don't see their dad or the mum, because they're still working and can't go on holidays together. You know, there's so many different variations of what we had. That makes it difficult to, to parent. So the other the other thing is both parents being on board, we would have a discussion sometimes going, well, you know, the kid would come along and playing the Mom and Dad, can I do this? Can I have their mom or go year or or dad was a year mom would say, No, we thought it was important to be the same, regardless of whether you thought their decision was wrong or right, as long as it was consistent. But that I guess a bit is still a bit old school, a consistent philosophy around behaviours, discipline and expectations and responsibilities and so on. I think it's important for the kids to have a little task jobs that are theirs, they own it. Even if it is just planting tomatoes, or you know, feeding the dog or whatever else it might be around, keep your room tidy, or some some other general place. It's important for those sorts of responsibilities to be worked on and practised in the family. From there, good luck.

1:11:28

I think one of the things from your both your childhoods is that there was a lot of that independent play and like you said, Imagination and freedom outside like you both grew up on farms. So you know, like, it was all outside play, it was all in nature, you were out digging up red dirt with a stick, and you know, making it into something or you're up a tree, or we've had lots of discussions around your childhoods. And there's many things that that is so important for our modern day parenting that we that that our children don't get or that aren't getting, and you have you have to actively create that time to go out in nature to you know, have your 1000 hours in nature and your your free play time. Because nowadays, it's so much more organised play dates, or structured, you know, Kindred gyms or there's so many different things that you that are available to us that parents

1:12:30

are too busy. Yeah. And, you know, yes, everybody has to work. But sometimes what is busy? Is that checking your phone? Is it answering emails? Is it? Or could you be busy with some special time down the park or digging a hole? It's a it's a shift in mindset. Or it's a change in mindset, or it's an awareness of the mindset that you're adopting. That is really important.

1:13:03

Yeah, and I think in some ways, we know a lot more around parenting, we know around this, like conscious awareness around feelings and play and listening. But on the other hand, as well, we've also have a lot more information, we have 24 hour access to emails and phone. And, you know, we used to look up the encyclopedias, and that's how we got information, you know, whereas now you kids google it, and there's just the screen and technology is something and there are there are many podcasts and parenting experts out there that talk about screens and the impact of that. And I think just that is something from your childhoods in your era that we we can really learn from I think one thing I was going to ask talk about mum is the story around when we backtrack a bit around going to understanding how feelings are held in the body. And Dad, you mentioned before about this long term game plan and having the space for feelings. And one thing that happened at the start of this year, and I know mom's gonna get upset talking about this, but I think it's really, it was one of the changing points for you. In understanding what we were trying to kind of do with the story around Grandma, do you want me to share it? Or are you able to, okay, so,

1:14:20

my grandma, who passed away at the start of the year, so mums mum passed away at the start of the year in the year so

1:14:27

she was 989. She would have been 90 this year in May, but she passed away in February. And towards the end of her life, she was had a type of dementia. And so you never really kind of knew what she was going to say. And she had a lot of anxiety and hallucinations and different things with her dementia. And one day mum and you can probably add to this mum if you want to share what do you want to share what exactly she was saying,

1:14:55

Okay, we as a family went to the beach Each house is gonna know which had a merry go round, and all the grandkids, my grandchildren and went on the merry go round. And we were visiting mom and we said we'd had this die out. And we went on the hurdy gurdy, the merry go round. Well, she went into uncontrollable tears. Now, she often would cry at something, but she was inconsolable for quite a while. And in the end, Mum, what, what is what, what's the matter that it was such a beautiful day. And she said, when I was little, which would have made it I'm probably 80 years ago, perhaps, that market gardeners and didn't have a lots of outings. And she said, we went to Grinnell, or we went, and there was a merry go round, and she'd saved her money to go on the merry go round. They took the neighbor's daughter with them. And they had a ride on the merry go around the two little girls. And then mum wanted another ride because she'd saved enough money. But the other little girl only had enough for one ride. And her mum wouldn't let her have a second role.

1:16:28

Oh, mom. So she remembered,

1:16:32

yeah, so she remembered it. And

1:16:36

clearly, she was, you know, 880 years later, still upset? Why not? For us? To have a rod, it was my mommy. She said. So, hey,

1:16:55

yeah, I think that I remember that day when mom came home and said, Gosh, you wouldn't believe it. Grandma started crying today about a memory that she had from the merry go round about 80 years ago. And she saw the picture because Mum had shown a picture of my kids on this merry go round. And Grandma started to cry. And Mum was like, I don't understand, like, you know, that was when you were, I think really like, wow, you can hold on to her, you can hold on to feelings from 80 years ago. Now, if she hadn't been able to have a second ride, because the other girl wasn't, you know, didn't have the money for it. But in that moment, if she had been able to let out her disappointment and her feelings and her frustration or her sadness, well, she, she wouldn't, she wouldn't have been able to what you wouldn't have been at, you wouldn't have had the space for those that disappointment or the fact that she spent months saving up her money. And for a second ride. We don't know these things. And nowadays, with this aware parent with a we're parenting, and we would the kid would probably get home and have a big cry about the fact that they weren't able to go on the second ride. And I would say, Yep, I get it. I'm listening. I'm here. I understand and allow those feelings to come out knowing that 10 minutes later, the kid jumps up and off, they go. They're fine. They've let it out. And it's not held in their bodies so that in 80 years time, they're not 9989 and crying about the fact that she was never able to go on that merry go round again. Merry Go. Yeah, America ride. And I think that that moment, man for you. How did that feel like, Oh, how did what did your what did that? Show you?

1:18:48

I guess it was a realisation that things just sit there for a very long time. And whilst her mum probably didn't give it to thoughts about No, no, Gene, you can't you can't have that. No, was on so No, we just have one ride today. How that would have how that impacted her. And probably it was just so deeply buried. But as you know, end of life was not that far away.

1:19:21

It came back. Yeah. And I think that is probably one of the examples of the long term game plan of this way of parenting is hopefully that when we we all have feelings, and it's okay to have whatever we're feeling and it's just having a space for them to be heard. And we only know this now like this has only really been having a deeper understanding of this in the last 20 or 30 years in terms of psychology in terms of brain imaging and MRIs and psychotherapies and develop warping understanding of trauma, understanding of how we hold things in the body. And these aren't. That's also a really classic example of, and going back to, you know, when you thought like, Oh, what have we done wrong or what have you know, nothing, because these incidences are often quite small, and fur apparently kind of thing, what is still thinking about the merry go round, it feels really small for us as the adults, but they're quite big for the kids. And so there's nothing major, they're not big traumas, they talk about the big T traumas, which are the traumas we think of as the bigger physical sexual abuse, or you know, wars or being ripped from your family, or like, they're, they often label that as the big T traumas. And then they talk about little T traumas, or the little things that over time, can build in your nervous system and in your bodies of if you just never really got to share how you felt, or if you never really got to choose your rides, or you never, you know, all of those little things that might have been quite small. But that build up and you know, you end up holding on to them for two years. And grandma, that was a really clear example of where there's what, you know, she had love, she had connection, she had a beautiful childhood. But it's just, that's why you haven't done any, there's nothing about doing things wrong. It's just the understanding that once it's out of her system, she's she's, you know, it goes on, she would then go on, but it means that maybe she might not have been quite so anxious in the, towards the end of her life, or, you know, she worried a lot. She was really anxious at times. And I wonder how much that might have changed if she had a space for her feelings? I don't know. But, but that's the long term plan of this way of parenting. Do you have anything to add any other things, I think we've covered lots of all the things, anything else that you would want to say or want to say to me or want to say to other grandparents or to people listening? Anything else?

1:22:13

It is hard on grandparents, if they're looking after the kid for a day or two weeks, every every Tuesday or spasmodically, it's hard to build up that long term report. So you fall back into your own parenting style, unfortunately, and it might clash with the the child a bit, but I guess if you just try and adopt and sit and listen and do that early on the piece, then that report should be developed a bit earlier. Just the observation of and most grandparents will probably find is the kids are behaving a certain way when they're with you. And then the parent will walk in and they'll turn into little monsters or just start behaving badly in their in their eyes. And you know, what it is, is obviously the kids are comfortable with releasing where they weren't comfortable with us. And we're thinking we're doing a great job because they're nice and compliant. And actually behaving in our own eyes. So just this probably happened to most grandparents at one stage or another. Just be aware that that is actually normal.

1:23:36

Yeah. Yeah, I think that is important for parents, like grandparents to know, because a couple of times when we've come home, and the kids start misbehaving, and then mom or dad might say, but they haven't been like this all day. And, you know, they only act like this when you're around. And, you know, they can think this is, you know, or they can think that this is because you're so soft on them or the mums. So this or, you know, you allow this behaviour, so that's why they do

1:24:07

it with thoughts of always

1:24:09

say, you know, I'm the soft ones, so and I'm allowing this behaviour and, you know, where, where's the discipline, where's the Come on, you need to tell them off for this behaviour. We've had them in, you know, they've been good for us all day. And, you know, look at how they are with us. That's how you need to be. But what I would say is that the, the child often knows where, like dad just said, they know where, who will listen, and they know that, you know, there's feelings that they've held in all day or however long it's been and they just come bubbling up to the surface when you get home or maybe they've missed you the separation has been a lot. And you know, when they see you, you know, all these feelings come up and it can come out in their behaviours and so really just understanding that that will happen.

1:25:01

It's not just in families, it's we've also, over the years, parent teacher interviews, you know, parents will come in and go on, like, it's, you know, just cannot do the right thing at home, and we go, Whoa, this kid is perfect at school. So clearly they've held at the end of the school, because they have to then release it all at home.

1:25:24

And I think that the thing was that to just, you know, bring to your attention or to keep in mind is that that is really normal. And I would say that that has happened less and less with us over the last maybe year, or six months or so because I think you guys have probably played a bit more with them, they're probably had more chances to just kind of let that out or, like, they have less feelings. Now days when we pick them up from me than what they did, you know, a few years ago, I think, because so it doesn't have to be like that. If you're open to just them being and they might have a little five minute crier, whatever, and then you move on, but you then there's less feelings held in for the parent at the end of the day. So I've noticed a change in that with them. Yeah, which is great, because then they, they have less, you know, less that they've been holding on to so yeah, I suppose for parents listening, just to know that that is really normal. It's normal for kids to kind of hold it in until they get back to their safe space. And as the more that the grandparents can listen to feelings and make that even a space for for those feelings to be heard, then there'd probably be less of the difference. I would say, what's

1:26:44

the terminology around that? What should grandparents be saying? Do you actually say to the child, we will listen to your feelings? Or do you just listen? Is there? Is there a conversation that starts?

1:26:58

Yeah, I think if it's something that is changing in, you know, from what you have done to what you want to do, I would just say if they start to get upset, or if they, you know, you can say to them, oh, you know, Nana and grandpa have learnt these things, and we're gonna, you know, your feelings are welcome here. You know, we'll try and listen as much as we can. So you could have that conversation, to just air it. And just to give them the information that you now have this knowledge, or that the grandparent, you now know, this way of being anything, I'll give this a go see, it's just about one you might state it and tell them that you know, this information and your your all your feelings are welcome here. But the thing then is the actual listening to it, when they start to get upset when they start to cry, to then just say, I'm right here, I'm listening. You know, I know this is hard, or yes, you really wanted the red cup, but we've only got the blue cup today. But then you just allow those feelings and the more times that

1:28:03

the more bloody red cup.

1:28:05

Yes, the more times they hear that they might then hold those feelings. And so the it's the experience for the child. And that's been one of the things that I talk a lot about is when a child feels like they have the space, it's their experience of it. So even though you might say to them, well, we're gonna listen to all your feelings. And, and it's like it's gonna, it's a short and sharp and it's a bit abrupt the experience for the child is that feelings aren't safe here. But if you can, as a grandparent as much as possible, you know, soften your voice, soften your body, kind of come alongside them, and say, Yeah, I get it. That's hard. Or you might say, I'm right here, I'm listening. And that experience for the child is then Oh, Grandpa actually is listening. He's not going to tell me off or he's not going to tell me I'm sillier. He's not going to shut me down. And over time, they will go up. That's the experience that they have is one that they might be played with. And they have a laugh. And I would probably use play a lot more, you know, in those red bowl, blue bowl scenarios, or the, I want this and I want that and you have a little dance around with it and a bit of play and a bit of roughhousing. And those feelings can shift really quickly.

1:29:25

Grandparents actually need some tools to Yeah, to work with as well. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:30

Yeah. So understand the tools. And I think that's what I'll include in the PDF as well as what can you say, instead of the old school paradigm of like, be quiet? You know, stop being silly. And what are some other things that we can say instead, and knowing that it's not always about scripts, because they can be pretty hard to kind of follow and I'm not really a scripted kind of person. But if you have a few things in the back of your mind, of what to say it can be really helpful.

1:30:00

Thanks. So I would just say that it's go on the journey remain open to what's going on in, you know your grandchildren's lives and their, you know, you won't always agree with the way things are perhaps handled. But in the end, you have to respect the fact that that's a choice that that family is making. And as long as you're included, and you're trying to understand what's going on, then that should, it should work out. But, you know, it's not necessarily an easy journey to sit back and see how things are going. But to be a part of it, and just remain open to what is out there in terms of styles and methodologies of parenting that might be or is different to what you had, indeed,

1:31:00

yeah. Probably one more thing that some parents or grandparents might get upset if the grandchild doesn't run up to you and give you a hug your whatever, you know, it's like, Don't get offended. Yes. If they don't feel like running up and giving you a hug, then that's their, their choice, it's not yours, or expecting you're expecting kisses all over the face, and all that sort of stuff. So just basically go, the kid doesn't want to give me a hug, that's fine. I'll, I'll accept that I won't be offended. Yes, that's great. We do go and watch the kids play sport and be involved as much as we can. But again, don't don't expect anything in return. To be honest, it will, that will be down the track, if, if they wish to acknowledge that you've made an effort to go and watch and don't. Don't take it personally. Yeah,

1:32:00

I think that's a really, really good point to make is because it is hard for the kids, you know, they see you once a week or you know, whatever it might be, that they do take time to warm up. And some kids take a lot longer. And when the it's a grandparent, or even anyone really takes it personally, even parents, I talked to parents about this, you know, if your kid doesn't want to run to you, at the end of the day, it can be because they haven't seen you for so long. There's lots of feelings because they've missed you, or they've, whatever it might be that to not take that personally, to not take our kids feelings personally. And to just hold space for them is really big, a really big one. And the thing that you guys have done really amazingly is adopt play. And maybe you've watched us do that or is like, and I think also, even after the last conversation we had about this stuff a few months ago, where we didn't record it. But I think when I realised that you understood that my kids weren't terrible kids, and they weren't. Like, I thought, Oh guys, I would I would get anxious because I think our mum and dad think that we were you know, we're doing a terrible job. But when the very next day, my kids started to act up a little bit. And they were like, you know, had some feelings and one of them started to do something dad came, you came into the lounge room and was starting to dance around and try and get the remote from them or, you know, make a joke and I could feel myself physically relaxed because I was like, ah, rather than like, they like that you don't you're not judging that you understood it. And I was like, I can actually relax around this now. Because

1:33:47

the key to this is to take other people on your journey with you don't don't just expect they're going to get it without some help. Understanding.

1:34:02

Yeah, and I think just having that I think I was stuck in the fear of being judged, which is a big one for many people the fear of being judged. meant like I just yeah, it was hard to I don't know talk about or bring it up or whatever it might have been but your play and the way you've played with the kids and say hello and do funny waves goodbye and funny things has meant that they feel very comfortable coming here and they love coming in like all of those sorts of things. So I think not taking it personally not taking they're not wanting to give hugs hugs and kisses personally, I'm not assuming that because you're the grandparents that you have the right to you know, come on, give me a kiss and a cuddle that it's the relationship and when a child feels really comfortable they'll come up and give you cuddles and kisses and they will show you that affection and also every kid is different. I've got kids that will do that more openly than others and not a not judging one over the other is important too. So yeah, that's a really good point that you made that around not taking those things personally. Yeah, so okay, Mom, do you want to talk about your final point, his mom's final point.

1:35:19

And then we're done. Final point. Make fun in life.

1:35:24

Thanks, Mum. I like that make fun in life and she's literally off. She's off. She's, this is too much emotions often make and bake is exhausted. Thank you so much for listening, I have actually put together a PDF of mum is literally now walking over to the kitchen to start baking because this is a coping mechanism of baking. So I've made a PDF for grandparents in mind explaining the difference in paradigm explaining the approach of aware parenting, which I've got other podcast episodes on. But it's in a PDF, if you want to have a read of it, it's downloadable in the show notes. And you can have a read of that if you would like to. And also send it to any grandparents if you would like them to have a look and listen. And hopefully this episode makes chatting to the parents to your parents a little more easier, maybe opens up conversations earlier than, you know, eight years down the track. Although I also am not judging myself or how this has unfolded because it is literally a journey. And I think it's it takes people many years to feel ready to talk about these things. So please, if you find this hard, I know that it's hard because it is hard. And that you know to take your time and to honour your own journey is really important too. So thank you so much for listening. I know it's a really long one and I know mums ready for a drink and

1:37:09

and that's probably exhausted too.

Shelley Clarke  1:37:13

I hope it's been really helpful and I will be back soon with some more podcasts next week. Bye for now. Thank you for listening. This episode was brought to you by 21 days of play my self paced course to help bring more play into your everyday. Thank you so much for listening. I would love to know your thoughts and feelings and to continue the conversation. You can connect with me on Instagram and Facebook @_shelleyclarke_ . If you'd like to keep in the loop for all my resources and offerings as they happen you can join my mailing list at www.shelleyclarke.com Thank you for all you are doing. Your parenting is important and powerful. Have a lovely day. Bye for now.